CNN TRANSCRIPT LEONARD PELTIER INTERVIEW
GREENFIELD: Welcome back to CNN & TIME.
Because we think of ourselves as such a politically stable country,
we're
shocked when we hear of violence that erupts between federal authorities
and
groups of private citizens. Think of Waco or Ruby Ridge.
Well, nearly a quarter of a century ago, in a more turbulent time in
America,
there was another shootout, this one at the Pine Ridge Reservation
in South
Dakota. It's case that is still controversial.
What actually happened at Pine Ridge in 1975? That remains unclear.
What we do
know is that two FBI agents were killed and only one man has ever been
convicted and sent to prison for those crimes. That man is LEONARDPELTIER.
More now from Mark POTTER.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LEONARD PELTIER, CONVICTED OF DOUBLE HOMICIDE: I didn't kill these people. I didn't kill them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel in this case that justice was done, genuinely
and
honestly.
PELTIER: I didn't kill those agents. I didn't see who killed
those agents. And
if I did know, I'm not telling. But I don't know. That's the point.
POTTER (on camera): Did you fire at those agents, Coler and Williams?
PELTIER: I shot in their direction, yes.
POTTER: You did shoot in their direction?
PELTIER: Yes, when I was running up toward the house. But I mean,
I -- I know
I didn't hit them. I know I didn't.
POTTER (voice-over): It's argument that LEONARD PELTIER,
a Native American,
has made for years: that he is innocent of murdering two FBI agents
in South
Dakota in 1975. He's been behind bars for those killings for nearly
a quarter
century and still argues defiantly that the agents were at fault.
POTTER (on camera): So the deaths of those agents are not murders.
PELTIER: Not in Indian -- not in Indian people's eyes.
POTTER: What are they?
PELTIER: Self-defense.
POTTER: In the Badlands of South Dakota on the Pine Ridge Indian
Reservation,
the mystery of exactly what occurred here on June 26th, 1975 is still
unsolved. What is known is the morning quiet was shattered by a
shootout between a group of Native Americans and two FBI agents.
The agents,
Jack Coler and Ronald Williams, were wounded from afar, then
executed at
point-blank range.
The only person ever convicted and imprisoned for the killings was LEONARD
PELTIER. He is serving two consecutive life sentences
at the Leavenworth
Federal Penitentiary.
All these years later, the case of the United States of America versus
LEONARD
PELTIER remains controversial. Many argue that he has served
more than enough
time in prison.
(on camera): What are you guilty of? Is there anything you concede?
PELTIER: Standing up for my people, saying, no more, America. God dammed, no more. Stop killing us. That's what I'm guilty of.
POTTER (voice-over): But the FBI and federal prosecutors argue
firmly that
PELTIER is lying, that the agents' blood is on his hands and
he should not be
released.
Nicholas O'Hara (ph) is a retired FBI supervisor.
NICHOLAS O'HARA, RETIRED FBI SUPERVISOR: Why should any civilized community have to take somebody like that who has shown no remorse, no sorrow, no acceptance of responsibility? The guy should never see the light of day.
POTTER (on camera): His argument for not showing
remorse is that he's
victimized and he didn't do it.
O'HARA: That's bullshit. The evidence (lab
report)is absolutely incontrovertible of his involvement in that
-- in those double homicides. I've described LEONARD
PELTIER as a mad-dog. He is truly a mad-dog.
POTTER (voice-over): Lynn CROOKS is an assistant U.S.
attorney who helped put
PELTIER in prison.
(on camera): Years later, decades later, you can still sleep well at
night
thinking that the...
LYNN CROOKS, ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY: Oh, absolutely.
POTTER: ... right man was convicted.
CROOKS: There's never -- there's never been a twinge of doubt
that's ever
crept into my consciousness that LEONARD was not a guilty participant
in this
murder.
POTTER (voice-over): Still, not everyone is convinced he is guilty
or received
a fair trial.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM J. CLINTON, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I am profoundly honored to be in Pine Ridge.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POTTER: Recently, when President Clinton visited the Pine Ridge
Reservation to
promote economic development, he was confronted by Native Americans
calling
for PELTIER's release.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, they concede they have no evidence...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POTTER: Over time, PELTIER's case even became an international
cause celebre.
Among those who have supported him are Mikhail Gorbachev, the European
Parliament, and former South African archbishop and Nobel laureate
Desmond
Tutu.
DESMOND TUTU, NOBEL LAUREATE: In a democratic society where there
is
transparency, you are innocent until you've been proven guilty beyond
a
reasonable doubt. And in this case, it doesn't seem so.
POTTER: Peter Matthiessen's book "In the Spirit of Crazy Horse"
brought
PELTIER's case to the public.
PETER MATTHIESSEN, AUTHOR, "IN THE SPIRIT OF CRAZY HORSE": We want LEONARD PELTIER to get a fair hearing. We want him out before his entire life is drained away to satisfy other people's political or vindictive agendas.
POTTER: Robert Redford is also a supporter and produced a documentary
called
"Incident at Oglala: The LEONARD PELTIER Story."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Amnesty International considers LEONARDPELTIER
to be a
political prisoner.
POTTER: Amnesty International is calling for PELTIER's
immediate release.
PELTIER has his own defense committee, with an Internet site,
and even has
support on Capitol Hill.
Among those arguing for clemency is Senator Daniel Inouye.
SEN. DANIEL INOUYE (D), HAWAII: Over the years, the evidence
that LEONARD
PELTIER is not the guilty party just seems to mount.
POTTER: But prosecutor Crook says PELTIER's are either
uninformed about all
the evidence or blinded by emotion.
CROOKS: This is a very garden-variety murder case, and it --
it took on an air
of a special case only because of the willingness of certain supporters
to
take this as an Indian cause when in fact this never had anything to
do with
him being an Indian.
Shooting FBI agents is a federal crime, regardless.
POTTER (on camera): So why does this nearly 25-year-old
case continue to evoke
such emotion and concern. To many, it is seen as unfinished business
from the
turbulent 1970s and the political climate of the times.
(voice-over): In 1973, two years before the agents were
murdered, armed
activists from AIM, the American Indian Movement, took over Wounded
Knee,
South Dakota to protest conditions on the Pine Ridge Reservation. It
led to a
71-day standoff with heavily armed federal authorities.
When the standoff ended, Pine Ridge was thrown into what PELTIER
supporters
call the reign of terror: escalating violence between AIM supporters
and
tribal vigilantes known as Guardians of the Oglala Nation, or GOONs.
Edgar Bearrunner (ph) was there.
EDGAR BEARRUNNER: The vast majority of people were prisoners
of fear. You
couldn't get out on the road and walk down the road without being shot
or run
over. Or you couldn't leave your lights on at nighttime without fear
of a
drive-by shooting.
POTTER: Bruce Ellison is one of LEONARD PELTIER's attorneys.
BRUCE ELLISON, ATTORNEY FOR LEONARD PELTIER: It was very much of a state of war in that sense, very much of a state of terror.
POTTER: Some claim the FBI contributed to the climate of fear
by targeting
AIM, an allegation the FBI
denies. It was during that period of conflict that
LEONARD PELTIER came to the reservation as part of AIM
to provide security.
It was also the time in June 1975 when the two FBI agents, Coler and
Williams,
drove onto the reservation in separate cars, reportedly searching for
a young
assault and robbery suspect.
According to the government's version of events, the agents came upon
this red
and white van driven by LEONARD PELTIER.
CROOKS: LEONARD and two other young men came into their
area in the red and
white van, followed by the agents, went down into the valley. The agents
had
said on the radio it looks like they're going to stop, it looks like
they're
getting out, they may shoot at us, we've been hit.
POTTER: The agents were in a bad position: a low-lying pasture
surrounded by
hills and trees.
According to the government, carrying only handguns, their rifles in
the
trunks of their cars, were also outgunned.
CROOKS: When the shooting started, others came from the camp,
and now we have six or seven people shooting at the agents. Very quickly,
they were injured,
seriously.
O'HARA: There were over 125 holes in the agents' cars. The ground
was chewed
up by the fire that was directed at these two defenseless agents. Jack
Coler
was shot, mortally wounded and knocked unconscious.
{Portion Missing}
for Coler's arm and there's two bullet holes in the shirt. So he'd already
been hit himself.
POTTER: The question of what happened next is the most controversial
part of
the government's case because a credible eye witness has never come
forward.
[Myrtle Poor Bear Affidavits 1, 23,
3a
and transcribed
4]
Federal authorities say the wounded agents were executed at close range
and
that the evidence suggests the murders occurred as Ronald Williams
tried to
surrender.
O'HARA: He apparently was holding his right hand up to shield
himself from the
assailants who came forward. And as they shot him, they shot him directly
through the hand, blowing part of it away, into his head killing him.
And
either before that or after that, Jack Coler, who's laying on the ground
dying, is shot twice in the head, killing him.
POTTER: The government claims it found a shell
casing in the trunk of Agent
Coler's car that came from an AR-15 semiautomatic rifle, allegedly
carried by
LEONARD PELTIER.
CROOKS: There's no question that he was the only individual who
was seen
firing at the agents with an AR-15 by any witness. Every witness at
trial was
consisted that the AR-15 was his, there was only one of them, and it
was his.
POTTER: Based on circumstantial evidence and testimony, including
that of
several Native Americans, the prosecution's contention is that LEONARDPELTIER
was involved in the executions.
{Portion Missing}
influence of LEONARD PELTIER. They aren't down there to
give aid and comfort
to these two injured, dying men. They're down there to execute them,
and
that's exactly what they did.
POTTER (on camera): So ultimately, the question
of whether LEONARD actually
fired the fatal shots in that broad context doesn't matter.
CROOKS: It's legally, factually and morally irrelevant. To me,
the law looks
at him in exactly the same way, whether he handed the gun to someone
else and
had them do it or whether he did it himself.
POTTER (voice-over): It's an account that LEONARDPELTIER
and his supporters
deny, claiming the government's case was built on phony evidence.
PELTIER: Somebody has to pay, that's what they're saying. Somebody
has to pay,
and I'm the unfortunate person that has to pay.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GREENFIELD: Coming up, LEONARD PELTIER says he
was framed. His version of
events when CNN & TIME continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SHAW: The FBI calls LEONARD PELTIER a cold-blooded
killer, a criminal
responsible for a 1975 firefight that killed two federal agents. But
if you
listen to PELTIER and his supporters, you hear a completely
different
story, one of a political prisoner and injustice.
Here again is Mark POTTER.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTER: President Clinton, release PELTIER, release PELTIER.
POTTER (voice-over): On the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation,
many of the
tensions and concerns from the mid-1970s are still present
today. It remains
one of the poorest corners in America. Unemployment is nearly 75 percent.
Alcoholism and hopelessness abound.
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTER: What are we working for today?
POTTER: In mid-summer, Pine Ridge residents led off on a protest
march led by
veterans of the 1973 Wounded Knee takeover, including AIM leaders Russell
Means and Dennis Banks.
UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER: This is the Nebraska State Patrol.
You're in
violation. Disperse at once.
POTTER: At the Nebraska border, they confronted police. Nine
were arrested. At
issue were concerns over alcohol sales and the unsolved murders of
two young
Native Americans. It's of the times two and a half decades ago, when
LEONARD
PELTIER set up camp at Pine Ridge.
Today, PELTIER is serving two life prison sentences, which run
until the year
2040. He is now a 55 year old grandfather.
(on camera): What's your greatest fear?
PELTIER: Dying in prison, you know, away from my family.
POTTER (voice-over): PELTIER denies the
government's contention he was
involved in the executions of FBI agents Jack Coler and Ronald Williams.
PELTIER: I didn't kill these people. I didn't kill them. I don't
know how else
to say it. I didn't kill them.
POTTER: He also denies he was in or even near the red and white
vehicle the
government claims they were following when the shoot-out erupted.
PELTIER: That was not my vehicle, first of all.
POTTER (on camera): To be clear, when the agents
came on to the reservation
and into that area, where were you?
PELTIER: I was down at camp.
POTTER (voice-over): According to PELTIER's
version of events, he was still in
bed when he heard gunshots.
PELTIER: Then all of a sudden everybody said, man, we're being
attacked. We're
being attacked. I says, oh, my God. So I grabbed an old rifle and started
running up to the house. There was all kinds of gunfire.
POTTER: PELTIER claims the only time he fired was in self-defense.
PELTIER: Some shells hit the side of the building, so I know
they were
shooting at me.
POTTER (on camera): And you shot back?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
POTTER: Did you hit anybody?
{Portion Missing}
hit, hurt where I was shooting at.
POTTER (voice-over): PELTIER says he never saw the dead agents.
(on camera): So with those cars down there at the center
of that, you, as a
leader, never -- never went down to see what was going on.
PELTIER: That's right.
POTTER: You never saw the bodies?
PELTIER: No.
POTTER (voice-over): But later, PELTIER
changed his account when told that
another AIM member had said publicly he and PELTIER approached
the agents'
cars.
(on camera): Did you see the agents dead?
PELTIER: Yes.
POTTER: You did see them dead?
PELTIER: Actually, I mean, I -- I, you know, I knew they got
killed. I heard
they got killed. I knew they got killed.
POTTER: Did you see them there?
POTTER: But you saw them from...
PELTIER: A distance.
POTTER: From some distance?
PELTIER: Yes.
POTTER: What did the scene look like?
PELTIER: I don't know, just two people laying there. I mean,
the car door --
the car door was open and stuff.
POTTER (voice-over): The shoot-out prompted a massive law enforcement response during which Joe Killsright Stuntz, a young Native American, was shot and killed.
Afterward, PELTIER says he and several others left the area.
He claims he
turned down an offer to hide in Cuba and eventually made his way to
Canada.
PELTIER: We don't have no faith in the justice system. We didn't
have no --
didn't think anybody could get fair trials.[FBI analysis
of Butler and Robideau trial page 1, page
2, page 3, page 4]
Don't think anybody you know, they were going to railroad somebody.
They were extremely upset about what happened to their agents.
POTTER: In November 1975, five months after the shoot-out, PELTIER
and three
other men were indicted for the murders of the FBI agents. Charges
against
one
of them were dropped. Two others, Bob Robideau and Dino Butler were
tried in
Cedar Rapids, Iowa.
They denied executing the agents, and argued that because of widespread
violence and fear on the reservation, they had acted in self- defense.
The
jury found them both not guilty.
Defense attorney Bruce Ellison:
BRUCE ELLISON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: After Butler and Robideau were found not guilty by the jury in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, the government documents say that they decided to shift all of their attention to basically convicting LEONARD PELTIER.
POTTER: By then, LEONARD PELTIER had been arrested
in Canada and was
extradited to the United States. His
trial in Fargo, North Dakota, was under
much different circumstances than the trial of Robideau and Butler.
Jurors
were sequestered and security was tight.
ELLISON: The jurors were transported in buses that had the windows
painted
shut. It's a climate of fear, and I think that that climate of fear
pervaded
the entire courtroom.
POTTER (on camera): During PELTIER's trial,
the judge limited the amount of
historical evidence that could be presented about violence on the reservation
and alleged FBI conduct. In addition, had more witnesses than at Cedar
Rapids.
PELTIER never testified on his own behalf.
(voice-over): In April 1977, LEONARD PELTIER
was convicted of two counts of
first-degree murder.
One concern among supporters is whether PELTIER was extradited
fairly from
Canada.
These affidavits were sworn by a woman named Myrtle Poor Bear, who said
she
was PELTIER's girlfriend and actually saw him commit the murders.
[Myrtle Poor Bear Affidavits 1, 23,3a
and transcribed
4]
PELTIER: Myrtle Poor Bear? Who the hell is Myrtle Poor Bear?
POTTER: The federal government used her affidavits to help convince
Canadian
authorities to return PELTIER to the U.S. for trial. Myrtle
Poor Bear later
claimed her statements were coerced.
ELLISON: She wasn't even there. She had never known LEONARDPELTIER.
It was a
complete and total fabrication.
POTTER: Over the years, some members of the Canadian parliament
raised
concerns about the extradition. The current Canadian justice minister
says
there was no fraud, and the FBI denies falsifying the affidavits. Prosecutor
Len CROOKS argues the controversy over Myrtle Poor Bear and
the extradition
had no bearing on the murder conviction.
CROOKS: Myrtle Poor Bear was not a trial witness. She did not
testify before
the jury. She had absolutely no impact on that verdict.
POTTER: But PELTIER's supporters argue the extradition
typifies a pattern of
government misconduct in this case, for example, the issue of the red
and
white van. Attorney Ellison argues that the FBI's own documents suggest
the
murdered agents may have actually been fired upon from a red
pickup truck, not
the van the government linked to PELTIER.
ELLISON: What we did not learn until after that trial was over,
years after
that trial was over was that the government knew it was a red pickup
that the
agents followed in.
CROOKS: The eyewitnesses only placed one vehicle coming in and
that's
LEONARD's. So obviously, they've developed the theory that there
was another
shooter, but there's no evidence of that. There was no evidence presented
at
trial of that.
POTTER: PELTIER's supporters also attacked the government's
crucial ballistics
evidence. At trial, the FBI said the shell casing found in the trunk
of Agent
Coler's car came from an AR-15 rifle linked to PELTIER.
ELLISON: Years after the trial, we obtained FBI documentation
which showed
that a definitive test excluded that
casing as having been fired by that
weapon.
POTTER: Prosecutor CROOKS argues the FBI ballistics reports
were badly written
and confusing, and that while the first tests were incomplete and
inconclusive, the final lab analysis matched the casing to the weapon.
A
federal appeals court agreed.
CROOKS: The bottom line of that opinion is the shell casing matches.
Nobody
seriously doubts that in any kind of scientific sense.
POTTER: The weapon was found in a car that exploded on the turnpike
near
Wichita, Kansas, after the Pine Ridge shoot out. Several AIM members
were
arrested, but PELTIER was not there. The defense claims it is
impossible to
prove the badly damaged weapon was his. Prosecutor CROOKS says
a witness
linked PELTIER to the AR-15.
PELTIER: That's another lie. I never had no, you know, no AR-15.
POTTER: PELTIER's supporters say the government's evidence is unreliable.
O'HARA: No way.
POTTER: The FBI categorically denies it fabricated evidence or
coerced
witnesses.
O'HARA: I don't think there is any question from a review of
the facts that he
was given a fair trial. It would have
to be such a major conspiracy to
railroad LEONARD PELTIER that it's almost impossible
to fathom how complex
that would be. The evidence is there, clear and convincing. He was
there. He
did it.
POTTER (on camera): PELTIER's attorneys
argued his case three times before a
federal appeals court and lost every time. The U.S. Supreme Court refused
to
review it. Last year, he was again denied parole.
(voice-over): With his appeals exhausted, PELTIER's
best hope for release now
is clemency from the president of the United States.
(on camera): LEONARD, do you know who killed those agents?
PELTIER: No.
POTTER: You don't?
POTTER (voice-over): PELTIER continues to
blame the government for the
shootout.
PELTIER: The oppression, the terror that they were committing,
they were
financing. Murders that they were supporting, not, you know, not
investigating.[murders] I mean, it's
all those things. I know that's what happened.
People were mad. People were angry.
CROOKS: He's not succeeded in getting parole for the reason that
most people
don't succeed: He's not shown the normal contrition, the normal remorse,
the
normal what-not that goes into it.
POTTER: Retired South African archbishop Desmond Tutu.
ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU, SOUTH AFRICA: The point is he says he is innocent. I mean, you say, how can he be able to express contrition or remorse for something that he hasn't done?
ELLISON: His two co-defendants were found not guilty on the same
charges. It's
a wrong that remains to be corrected.
POTTER: Author Peter Matthiessen.
PETER MATTHIESSEN, AUTHOR: I think we have a wonderful chance
to act
mercifully and say, enough is enough. This man has paid.
POTTER: But the government's position remains firm. Two consecutive
life
sentences means two consecutive life sentences.
POTTER (on camera): In your view, does LEONARD
belong right where he is, in
prison?
CROOKS: Absolutely.
POTTER: Still today?
CROOKS: Yes. I have seen nothing to indicate that he shouldn't
be right where
he is at.
PELTIER: I'm not a cold-blooded executioner like Len CROOKS
has been saying
for 25 years, or 24 years. You know, I'm not a mad-dog killer. I'm
not a thug.
I'm a human being. That's been wronged, and I have some friends to
tell the
world.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SHAW: Those seeking clemency for LEONARD PELTIER
plan to bring their message
here to Washington next month. Dubbing November, LEONARD PELTIER
Freedom
Month, supporters are outlining a series of events in the nation's
capital,
including a near month-long fast in front of the White House.
Well, that's this edition of CNN & TIME. I'm Bernard SHAW.
Jeff, I'll see you
next week.
GREENFIELD: Thanks, Bernie. I'm Jeff Greenfield, for everyone
at CNN,
good-night.
