US vs LEONARD PELTIER TRIAL TRANSCRIPT EXCERPTS Case Number CR77-3003

NORMAN BROWN DIRECT EXAM
CONT FROM VOL 7

MR. HULTMAN:  Plaintiff calls Norman Brown.
 IF it please the Court.
 THE COURT:  You may proceed.
 NORMAN BROWN,
being previously sworn testified further as follows:
 DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. HULTMAN:
 Q  And you understand that today as a witness that you are still in your renarl;s sworn on the pipe to tell the truth, do you understand that?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And that what you did yesterday continues today?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  I want to go back to where we left off yesterday, and at that time I believe you indicated that there were certain people in certain places when you got to the area, the general vicinity of the green house, the little shed between and the white house, is that right? Do you recall that?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Now I want to direct your attention again to Government's Exhibit No. 71. As I recall, one of the persons you indicated that was there when you arrived there was Norman Charles, is that right?
{1470}
 A  What?
 Q  Was Norman Charles one of the persons who was in this area when you got into the area yourself?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Where we left off yesterday.
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Where was Norman as best you recall when you first saw time?
 A  He was at the white house.
 Q  At the white house. And that's the house that's been referred to here as the Jumping Bull house is that correct?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And do you remember, did he have any weapon of some kind t that time?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And would you describe it to the jury for us, please.
 A  Well, it was long rifle. Just a long rifle.
 Q  It was a long rifle of some kind.
 Now you also indicated that there was another person here when you got there. Do you remember who that was?
 A  Mike.
 Q  And who is Mike? Mike who?
 A  Anderson.
 Q  Mike Anderson.
 Where was Mike Anderson when you saw him when you {1471} arrived?
 A  By the white house.
 Q  He was also by the white house. And that's the same house you just talked about that's the Jumping Bull house, is that right?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And you indicated that there was another person that you saw not in the area of the houses but in another part of the area down in an area which you circled with this "P" in the general area of the "P," is that right?
 A  Right.
 Q  Who was that?
 A  Leonard.
 Q  Now did the other person that was here at the -- pardon? Leonard was here?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  I want to take you back. The person you just referred to prior to Leonard, did he have a weapon of some kind at the white house?
 A  Who?
 Q  This second person. You indicated you saw two persons here. You talked about one of then having a weapon of some kind did you not?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Did the second person have a weapon of any kind?
{1472}
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And who was that person?
 A  Mike.
 Q  Mike.
 Now what kind of a weapon? Would you describe what the weapon was as it looked like as you best recall.
 A  I think it was a .22.
 Q  And was it a .22 that you also had?
 A  I think so.
 Q  Now you described that. What kind of a weapon did Leonard have?
 A  Well, when I, it looked like M-16.
 Q  And that was the weapon that you described for the jury a little earlier, is that right?
 A  Right.
 Q  I'm going to show you now that has been marked as an exhibit in this case and ask you at the time that you are now talking about and the person you are referring to and the actions that you described at the end of yesterday, was it a weapon of this general type and description?
 A  Yeah. Looked like that.
 Q  All right.
 Now you indicated that one of those two persons also had a weapon that looked like a .22, is that correct?
 A  Right.
{1473}
 Q  And that you had a weapon Norman Brown l t 73 that you had earlier described, is that correct?
 A  Right.
 Q  And I'm going to show you now the weapon that has been introduced or marked as evidence in this case as 41A and ask you whether or not it was a weapon of this kind that you had at the time you're now testifying.
 A  That kind?
 Q  Yes. A weapon. Yes.
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Was the weapon that you saw in the hands of Mr. Anderson at that time, was it one of a general description of this kind?
 A  What do you mean?
 Q  Well, you said, I believe, you thought it was a .22, is that right?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Did the .22 in any way resemble one like this in any way?
 A  No.
 Q  No. All right.
 Was there anything else in particular about the one you had from the one he had as you recall?
 A  Well, mine had the scope.
 Q  Yours had the scope. Did his have the scope?
 A  I don't remember.
 Q  Is there anything else about Mr. Anderson's weapon that {1474} you do recall?
 A  Just a rifle.
 Q  Just a rifle. And a .22 you thought?
 A  Yeah. .22.
 Q  Now you said that just as you came to the hill that you were with another person, is that right?
 A  That's right.
 Q  And who was that?
 A  Joe.
 Q  And did Joe have a weapon of any kind at that time?
 A  Right.
 Q  And what kind of a weapon? Describe it to me.
 A  Well it was lever action (indicating).
 Q  All right.
 A  lever. And you made --
 MR. HULTMAN:  Let the record show that the witness made a signal in this direction (indicating).
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) What else do you remember about that particular weapon that Joe had?
 A  It was a rifle.
 Q  And it was a rifle. Is there anything else you remember about it? Had you ever seen it before?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And where had you seen it before?
 A  In the log cabin there.
 Q  You had seen it before here in the log cabin. The same {1475} place that you had seen the weapon that you have previously referred to that Mr. Peltier had at this time is that right?
 A  Say that again.
 Q  You saw it in the same place, the log house, which in earlier testimony you said that is likewise a place where you saw a weapon of the same kind and nature that Mr. Peltier had at this time?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Now I'm going to show you what again has been marked as an exhibit in this case and ask you whether or not the weapon that Mr. Stuntz had was one of a general description of the same type as I'm now going to show you?
 MR. HULTMAN:  Let the record show I have in my hands Government Exhibit No. 32A.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) I want you, Norman, to look at this weapon and ask you whether or not the one that you have describe that Joe had was one of this general description?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And wren you referred to a lever or a lever handle, is his what you were referring to?
 A  Right.
 Q  You said you had seen the weapon that he had before, is that correct?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And you had seen it in the log house?
{1476}
 A  Right.
 Q  Now we've talked about the two people that were here when you arrived in the general vicinity of the white house. You've talked about Mr. Stuntz, you talked about Mr. Peltier. Was there anyone else other than the two men that you said you had split with and those two persons were who, as you recall?
 A  Bob and Dino.
 Q  Bob and Dino. You had split with them.
 Were there any other people that you saw in the area that I have inscribed here, in this area (indicating)? Do you remember seeing anybody else?
 A  No.
 Q  At that time.
 A  No.
 Q  That's everyone?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Is there --
 A  That's all I saw.
 Q  Is there any question in your mind about that at all, whether or not there was any other persons?
 A  Yeah.
 MR. TAIKEFF:  I have to object to the form of that question, Your Honor, as assuming a fact not in evidence. I think the witness said he did not see anyone.
{1477}
 MR. HULTMAN:  I will restate it and it's correct, Counsel.
 THE COURT:  Very well.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) My question to you, Norman, are there any other persons that you saw, there may have been people you didn't see, of course --
 A  Yeah. I saw Angie and Ivis.
 Q  The Long Visitors that you talked about. They didn't have any weapons with them of any kind, did they?
 A  No. No.
 Q  Were there any other persons at all that you can recall?
 A  No.
 Q  Now at the time that you said you saw Mr. Peltier and you described his actions and the type of weapon that he had and the shooting, did you see any other persons in the entire area that's represented here? Did you see any other people of any kind?
 A  Yeah. We were running, when we got to the houses, two FBI Agents started shooting at me and Joe.
 Q  Two FBI agents started shooting at you and Joe. Where were the two FBI agents?
{1478}
 A  (Indicating.)
 Q  All right. And would you point out on Government's Exhibit 71 where they were.
 A  (Indicating.)
 MR. HULTMAN:  Let the record show that, the witness has pointed out the area of Coler's car as it's represented in writing on Government's Exhibit No. 71.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Now, would you tell us when it was, where you were when you saw the two agents first here in the area you've pointed out, where were you when you first saw them?
 A  I was right by that green house (indicating).
 Q  By the green house, and that's this house here (indicating); is that right?
 A  No.
 Q  You point out and you tell us, I don't mean to --
 A  (Indicating.)
 Q  Would you maybe stand up if you have to in order to actually touch the board.
 A  (Indicating.)
 Q  All right. You are showing the green house. And where, where around the green house were you as you best recall with relationship to the green house? Where were you?
 A  About right here (indicating}.
 Q  All right. You were somewhere between the green house and {1479} shed the shed. Is that the general area that you are pointing out?
 A  Right. Around that area.
 Q  Now, what were you doing at the moment that you saw the two individuals down in this area (indicating)? What were you doing when you first saw them?
 A  Well, when I first, when they come running we saw them. And I stood by that house ready for the shots, and I was going across. And they started shooting and, you know, I could hear the rounds go by. And that's when I started shooting back again.
 Q  All right. Now, would you describe what it was you saw here. Would you describe the scene that you observed in front of you for the jury. In other words, you tell the jury what it was you saw.
 A  Well, I saw there was, I saw two cars.
 Q  All right, you saw two cars.
 Would you tell us where the cars were in terms of each then and how would you describe the two cars?
 A  Well, one was pointing, you know, south, and the other was pointing west.
 Q  All right. Would you come here and point with the pointer or us the direction that each of the cars were pointed, and let's start with one car and just talk about one car for a moment. Would you do that?
 A  (No response.)
 Q  Okay. Tell the jury one car, start with one car.
{1480}
 A  Well, this one was south, pointing south and north.
 Q  All right. So was it in a position, if this were to represent a car itself, was it pointed in generally the direction that that drawing is right now?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. And was it in the general area or position that represented in this Government's Exhibit No. 71? Is that about how you would best recall it was?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. Can you tell the jury anything more about that car. Do you remember anything about the car?
 A  The hood, the trunk hood was open.
 Q  All right. So that, which the direction you say was, it faced this direction; is that right?
 A  Yeah. The front was facing that way (indicating).
 Q  But the trunk hood was up, is that what you are saying?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. Now, is there anything else you remember about car?
 A  There was an agent.
 Q  And where was the agent with relation to the car itself?
 A  He was behind that trunk hood.
 Q  He was behind the trunk hood of the car we are talking about?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Would you describe, did he have a weapon of any kind?
{1481}
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And do you remember what it looked like?
 A  I think he had a handgun, or he had one than pumped, a rifle.
 Q  He had one that pumped?
 A  A rifle.
 MR. HULTMAN:  And let the record show that the witness gave a motion with his left hand like a movement of some kind.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) All right. Have you seen a gun, a pump gun before this particular time? Had you ever seen a pump gun?
 A  No.
 Q  Hadn't seen one?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. Have you seen one since of any kind, any time, anywhere?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. Now, so as you best recall then the man standing behind this car (indicating) was behind an open trunk, and he had a weapon that looked like he was pumping; is that a fair conclusion of what you've just said?
 A  Right.
 Q  Was there anything else that you remember about that car, that person, anything in particular?
 A  (No response.)
{1482}
 Q  If you don't, we'll move to the second car.
 A  I don't remember.
 Q  All right. Now, would you point out to the jury where the second car was with relationship to the car you've just talked about.
 A  Right there (indicating).
 Q  All right.
 MR. HULTMAN:  And let the record reflect that he pointed to a position that was to the left.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Do you remember seeing any junked cars or abandoned cars that were in the area at all? Do you recall any junked or abandoned cars at all?
 A  You mean these here (indicating)?
 Q  Well, any where.
 A  Yeah. These here junked cars (indicating).
 Q  There were some junked cars.
 MR. HULTMAN:  And let the record show that the witness refers to a row of sis approximately objects in the area just to the West and a little south of the intersection which is marked with a "P".
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Do you remember any other junked cars of any kind?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. Now, tell us with relationship to the first car that was pointed generally in the direction that you were, {1483} is that a fair description by me of the hill?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  What direction was the vehicle, car pointed?
 A  West. He was pointing east, the front was pointing east.
 Q  All right. Would you, by taking the object that is here, and is just in the general shape longer than it is one direction to another, would you put it on the map and place it in the direction, or in the position that it was sitting as you best remember. This is the second car now we are talking about.
 A  (Indicating.)
 Q  Maybe we should put the first car first where you thought the first car was and that might help.
 A  Yeah (indicating).
 Q  All right. And then put the second car.
 A  Where's the front one?
 Q  Well, was the front of the car pointed toward the first car?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. So that in other words you are saying as you put it here this is the front of the car; is that right?
 A  (No response.)
 Q  Nearest, or pointing in a general southerly direction?
 A  Yeah. It had to.
 Q  Now, what can you recall about that car, and anything about that car? Is there anything in particular that you remembered about the car?
{1484}
 A  It was shooting. There was an agent shooting.
 Q  There was an agent shooting.
 Where was that agent?
 A  I think he was on this side (indicating).
 Q  All right.
 MR. HULTMAN:  Let the record show that the witness has pointed to the side which is away from the position where he was.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) The car was between you and the agent; is that right?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. Now, did he have a weapon of some kind?
 A  Yeah. It was a handgun.
 Q  It was a handgun.
 And could you see what position he had the handgun?
 A  Yeah. He'd get up and shoot some rounds and back down.
 Q  So you saw him shoot and then get back down; is that right
 A  Right.
 Q  Now, were there any other people now that you saw in the area other than the ones that you described up to this point? Do you remember any other persons, seeing any other persons in the area that is shown here as Government's Exhibit 71 up to this time?
 A  Did I see anybody in this area besides these two?
 Q  Yes.
{1485}
 A  No.
 Q  All right. Did you see anybody, any other people in the entire area that you were looking at, the scene you were looking at from up here in the place that you were located? Did you see any other persons?
 A  Well, after a while two cars came in.
 Q  All right. Now, would you show the jury where those cars came in on Government's Exhibit 71.
 A  Can I talk to my lawyer?
 Q  Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
 MR. HULTMAN:  Your Honor, the witness has requested an opportunity to visit with his lawyer.
 THE COURT:  Very well.
 (Whereupon, the witness conferred with his counsel, Mr. Maring.)
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Now, Norman, I believe we were at the point where you indicated you now saw some other people somewhere; is that right?
 A  Right.
 Q  All right. Would you maybe, if you'd come over in this side so that the jury could see, and you point out on the map, Government's Exhibit 71, where it was now that you saw any other persons. And if you don't remember exactly, tell us as est you can where it was.
 A  I saw two cars coming in right here (indicating).
{1486}
 MR. HULTMAN:  And let the record show that the witness has indicated that two cars, he saw two cars coming in on an extension of the road that comes from Highway 18 past Jumping Bull Hall into the residences that we know as Wanda Siers; and the area he specifically is referring to is a, an area approximately the length of a pencil if you put one end of the pencil at the Siers' residence and left the rest of it in a generally northeasterly direction on the road that is there.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Now, what is it then that, what is it that happened at that time?
 A  You mean right there (indicating)?
 Q  Yes. Tell us what it is you saw and observed.
 A  Well, I saw two cars were coming in. When they were coming in we started shooting at those two cars.
 Q  You say "we started shooting;" is that right?
 A  (No response.)
 Q  And who do you mean by "we"?
 A  Me and Norman Charles.
 Q  All right. Now, where were you and Norman at that time? Would you show the jury again on Government's Exhibit 71 where you were at that time.
 A  Yeah. I moved from here (indicating) to this white house the propane tanks.
 Q  All right.
{1487}
 MR. HULTMAN:  Let the record show that the witness now had moved from where he had indicated previously to a point near the Jumping Bull house near some propane tanks.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Is that what I heard you say?
 A  Right.
 Q  All right. Where were those propane tanks with relationship to the Jumping Bull house?
 A  They wore on the east side of the house.
 Q  All right. Would you point out approximately where they were.
 A  (Indicating.)
 Q  All right.
 MR. HULTMAN:  Let the record show that he points to the east side of the Jumping Bull house.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Were these tanks seemingly tanks that are up against a house and used somewhere in the house?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. Now, where was the other person that you refer to at that time, the time you say, "We started shooting"?
 A  There was two cars. There were some people in there. I don't know how many people, though.
 Q  All right. And they were coming into the Jumping Bull area; is that right?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. And how far, as you recall if you do, about {1488} where was it that she first car got, as far as it got?
 A  Right there (indicating).
 Q  All right. And let me make an "A" at that particular point where the witness has just marked a pencil "At" on Government's Exhibit No. 71.
 The first car got to that point; is that right?
 A  Right.
 Q  All right. Now, where was the second car?
 A  Right there (indicating).
 Q  All right. And let me put a "B" at that point. In other words, one car was following the other, is that a fair conclusion on my part?
 A  Right.
 Q  All right. Now, at what point did you, when you referred to to "we," the two of you start firing at the two cars, "A" and "B"? Where were they when you started firing at them right where you pointed it out there?
 A  Well, right here (indicating).
 Q  little short of the point of where they stopped.
 Now, describe what it was that then happened as far as the two cars.
 A  Well, started shooting at them. I think a couple of the tires. Then they moved back, they practically stopped and, and they moved back to about right here (indicating), somewhere around this area hero (indicating), and they were parked there.
{1489} And they got out and they started shooting at us.
 Q  All right. Where they finally parked, where was it with relationship to the Highway 18? Was it a long way from the highway, or a short way, or somewhere --
 A  You mean right here (indicating)?
 Q  Yes. I just want to find out generally.
 That's generally where you think it was; is that right?
 A  Yeah. Around this area here (indicating).
 Q  All right. Somewhere in this area (indicating.)
 I'm going to draw a circle.
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Now, could you continue to see all of those two cars?
 A  You mean from there (indicating)?
 Q  Yes. From where you were?
 A  Yes. I could see them.
 Q  You could still see them, all right.
 How far away from the Siers' residence, or the house that you are talking about that they got up to in front of almost "A" and "B", how far away from it as you remember back your mind in the scene, how far away did the two cars back in distance from the house that was known as the Siers' residence? Could you give the jury an estimation of some kind?
 A  You mean how far they moved back here (indicating)?
 Q  Yes. How far did they move back?
{1490}
 A  About seventy-five yards.
 Q  All right. Approximately seventy-five yards?
 A  About, yeah.
 Q  All right. Now, what if anything then happened next? What do you remember next?
 A  As soon as we started shooting at them, shooting at us, we saw some more cars coming around, around this area where that highway is.
 Q  All right. You know the area generally, do you not?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Is there another road or highway that comes around on the other side of the creek which would be below Government's Exhibit 71?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And is it on the side of a hill somewhat the same height as this general area in here (indicating)?
 A  Yeah. I could, you could see the road from --
 Q  You could, all right.
 A  From around there, yeah.
 Q  You could look across the wooded land where the creek was over to where that road is and see it; is that right?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. Now, what was it that you saw happening over here on the road, that's over on this side of the creek?
 A  Saw some agents. Well, we got out of the car and they {1491} started going across the field this way (indicating). They got out of the car. I think there was three or four of them got out of the car and started coming up this way (indicating).
 Q  So they got out of their car and they started coming towards your direction, is that a fair conclusion on my part?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. Do you remember, do you know any of the houses or any of the people that lived across from the creek along that road that you are talking about?
 A  No.
 Q  You don't know any of them?
 A  No.
 Q  And did you know any buildings of any kind over there?
 A  Yeah. I think there's a couple houses back there somewhere.
 Q  All right. And were the men that you saw anywhere in the vicinity of any of those houses that you talked about? If you recall whether they were or they weren't.
 A  I don't know. I saw them get out of the car and they come this way (indicating).
 Q  All right. Now, you said that they were agents, and I want to ask you about that. Did you know at the time or is this something that you concluded at that time?
 A  You mean --
 Q  That they were agents?
 A  Yeah. At that time when I saw them, you know, people would {1492} tell me, you know, there's agents on Pine Ridge and there's goons. And when everything happened from then, you know, I thought it might be agents.
 Q  All right. So you thought they were agents, that's the point you are making?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  You didn't know of your own knowledge --
 MR. TAIKEFF:  Your Honor, I object to the repetition because the witness said ho thought they might have been agents. And it was made, the repetition was made in a very positive sense.
{1493}
 MR. HULTMAN:  I withdraw, and that is correct.
 THE COURT:  Very well.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Now, what was the next thing that you saw and observed; were you still at the same position here in the general area of the tents, of the white house?
 A  No, slipping around the house, and then we saw a couple of cars go by up here (indicating).
 Q  All right. Could you see Highway 18 then from where you were?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Could you see the -- any cars coming and going?
 A  Yes, saw them coming and go by, past.
 Q  What direction were those cars going, if you remember, would you show the jury what direction?
 A  (Indicating).
 Q  And they were going fast, you said?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Now, what was the next thing that you saw and observed?
 A  Joe came up to me, and he said, "There is women and children in the camp, you know. Our sisters are down there," he said. Then he said, "Why don't you go down there? The agents are coming in this way (indicating), so this is the time to be a man. This is the time to be a warrior," so he said, "Why don't you go over there and take somebody with you?" "They might be coming in from this side (indicating)."
{1494}
 Q  What general area were you discussing at that time, would you point out on the map generally?
 A  Right up there (indicating).
 Q  Generally where the tents were, is that right?
 A  Yes.
 Q  All right. Now, did you at any time while you were on the hill itself look down where the agents were again and see anything down where the agents were?
 A  Yeah. I saw one of them. I think it was this guy here (indicating).
 Q  That's the one that was behind the first car, behind the trunk, is that the one that you are pointing out now?
 A  Yeah, I think it was that guy (indicating).
 Q  All right.
 A  One of them I saw crawl through the car and crawl back to the original positions they were at. I think it was this one here (indicating). I don't remember, but I know I saw one of them.
 Q  What you remember then is that you saw one of them, you don't know which one, is that a fair conclusion?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And what was it you observed him doing if you did see him doing anything, you said he was crawling?
 A  Yeah. He crawled through the front of the car and he crawled out. He was there for awhile, and then he crawled back {1495} out and got in the same place where he was at.
 Q  All right. Did you see the second person at this time that you are talking about?
 A  Yeah. He was shooting away there.
 Q  Now, what kind of a weapon did he have, what kind of a gun?
 A  Handgun.
 Q  The handgun, all right.
 Now, did you at any time see anybody else down in the are where the two men were?
 A  Besides those two?
 Q  Yes, at any time during the afternoon.
 A  No.
 Q  You didn't see anybody else in that area at all?
 A  No.
 Q  Now, did you see the men at the cars, the two men at any other time than the two times you have now talked about, prior to the time that you left?
 A  You mean, did I see them right after I saw them them times that I saw them?
 Q  You talked about two times. Did you see them any other time?
 A  No. That's when Joe told me to go around and take them, so we ran across over here (indicating). Then we were over here by this gate here (indicating), around here (indicating).
{1496}
 Q  All right. Would you tell me, and I will mark it, I will move my pencil and you tell me when -- have I gone too far, can you reach it? You show me where so I can make a mark, or you make a mark.
 A  (Indicating) It is right here (indicating).
 Q  All right. Let me make a mark where you are pointing right now.
 A  Right there (indicating).
 Q  Use the pointer, and I will make the mark where you place the pointer.
 A  (Examining) There is a gate right here somewhere (indicating).
 Q  Gate somewhere in here, in that general area (indicating)?
 A  Yes.
 Q  All right. Let me put a "G" there for "gate", somewhere in that general area?
 A  (Indicating). (Examining) Around here some place (indicating).
 Q  All right. I will draw a circle in there.
 A  Yes.
 Q  And I put a "NB" there for Norman Brown, that's the area generally where you are talking about, is that right?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Now, did you then go to that point is that what you are saying?
{1497}
 A  Yeah, me and Mike ran over there.
 Q  All right. You and Mike ran to a point that is the general area of the circle "NB", is that right?
 A  Yes.
 Q  All right. Now, what was the route, would you point out the route that you generally took, you and Mike?
 A  About like this (indicating).
 Q  All right. It was in a general direction from the areas of the houses to the area that is known as "NB", is that right, generally in that direct?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Not in a straight line, but just generally?
 A  Yes.
 Q  All right. Did you see anybody down there when you arrived there?
 A  Yeah, just me and Mike, us two were there, that's all I saw.
 Q  Did you see anybody at all?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. Now, how long approximately had you been up in this area (indicating), that you have been talking about, from the time you got there until the time you are now talking about that you left, can you give --
 MR. TAIKEFF:  (Interrupting) Your Honor, just to make clear, a clarification for the record, by the phrase {1498} "this area", I believe Mr. Hultman intended to be the area --
 MR. HULTMAN:  (Interrupting) "NB", the area to which he left. The area from which he left to the area which he went to.
 MR. TAIKEFF:  The "from" place is the residence, and the "to" place is near the gate.
 MR. HULTMAN:  Yes, near the gate.
 MR. TAIKEFF:  I wanted to make sure the record was complete.
 MR. HULTMAN:  Right.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) How long approximately, if you have any idea at all, as you best recall were you here on the hill area, in the area of the houses, from the time you got there until the time you are now talking about when you left?
 A  Well, when we ran, me and Joe up here (indicating) 20 minutes and these cars came. I don't know. It happened fast, you know. I didn't keep track of time.
 Q  All right, but am I clear in what your response to me was, that it was about 20 minutes from the time you got here (indicating) until the cars came in, is that what you just now said in your answer? I want to make sure of what you said.
 A  I don't know for sure.
 Q  Approximately?
 A  I don't know.
 Q  How long then was the total time that you were there before {1499} you left?
 A  It was about an hour, hour and a half.
 Q  Hour, hour and a half, that's the best you can do?
 A  Yes.
 Q  All right. Now, did you at any time, Norman, go from the hill area back to the tent area, other than the time you are now talking about; do you recall ever going back there during that period of time other than the one you are talking about now?
 A  I don't think so.
 Q  All right. Let me ask you this:  Did you have the same weapon from the time you left and came to the hill until the time you are now talking about when you went to the area that we have marked on the map as "NB", did you have the same gun during that period of time?
 A  Well, I don't know. I don't remember.
 MR. TAIKEFF:  I didn't hear the answer, your Honor?
 THE WITNESS:  I don't remember.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) You don't remember.
 Now, other than the two occasions that you said when you looked down at the bottom of the hill, do you recall at any time during the hour to an hour and a half, which was an approximation you made, do you remember any other occasion when you looked down at the bottom of the hill?
 A  I don't understand the question.
{1500}
 Q  You were here in this area (indicating) for an hour, an hour and a half approximately, is that what you told the jury?
 A  I said I didn't know, about.
 Q  I know, about, approximately?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. Whatever the time was when you were up on the hill during that period of time that you were there, did you look down and view anything at the cars other than the two times that you have described to the jury?
 A  No.
 Q  You did not, so that all the rest of that time then you were doing things that didn't have anything to do with this area down here (indicating), is that right?
 A  I take these people over here (indicating), that were over here (indicating), and shooting back here (indicating), and then saw some cars coming around and went back here (indicating) we were waiting for them.
 Q  So is it fair for me to conclude that you didn't do any other shooting of any kind?
 A  Yeah, I shot at them, yes.
 Q  When did you first --
 A  (Interrupting) The first time I came down. They shot at me, and I shot at them.
 Q  Is that the only time you fired down there?
 A  The next time I saw them, they were shooting at us -- {1501} when I saw them, three times, the third time is when I shot back.
 Q  All right. Let me take them one at a time
 There are three times that you looked at them now, is that correct, as best you remember?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Have you told us about the first time already?
 A  Yes. When I was coming across here (indicating) they shooting at me and I shot back.
 Q  All right. Now, when you say they were shooting at you could they likewise have been shooting at somebody else in same general direction?
 A  Yeah, they could.
 Q  As far as you felt at that time, they were shooting at is that right?
 A  You know, probably. Probably, yeah, shooting at all of us.
 Q  Now, the second time, did you shoot at that time?
 A  Back?
 Q  Yes.
 A  Yeah, I shot back.
 Q  The second time you say you saw the two men down here (indicating), if I recall you correctly -- you correct me if I say anything that is different than what you saw -- that there was one man who was standing still with the handgun, is that right, talking about the second time?
{1502}
 A  Standing still?
 Q  Standing, but he had a handgun, he was standing shooting, firing?
 A  He was shooting going down.
 Q  All right. Now, there was also a second man, and you say he was crawling, is that right?
 A  Yeah, he was crawling.
 Q  All right. Do you recall anything about the man that was standing in terms of what he looked like that might or might not have been different from the first time that you saw him?
 A  What do you mean?
 Q  Did he look any different in any way than the first time?
 A  No.
 Q  Now, did you fire back on that occasion when you looked the second time that are referring to?
 A  No, because he was shooting at me and I didn't shoot that time.
 Q  Now, what is the third time again that you are referring to now?
 A  When I was back here (indicating), you know, when I saw the car come around this way (indicating).
 Q  The car?
 A  It was this way (indicating), I saw the car.
 Q  When you are referring to you saw other cars, where is it that you are now talking about, where were those cars?
{1503}
 A  Back here (indicating), the highway, the dirt road.
 Q  You are talking about the road that loops around, this one you were talking about a little while ago, you saw some more cars on that road?
 A  From the time I saw those, he told me to go over there.
 Q  Is that the time then that you saw and looked down where the two cars and the two men were, the third time, is that the time?
 A  Right.
 Q  All right. Now, what is it that you saw at that time?
 A  In here (indicating)?
 Q  Yes.
 A  Shooting at me, so I shot back. I don't know if they were shooting at me, you know, the guns were pointing that way.
 Q  Would you describe what the two men were doing at that particular time as you best recall?
 A  One had a pump rifle (indicating), and the other one had handgun.
 Q  All right. One had a pump rifle, and you pumped again, is that right?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And the other one had the handgun?
 A  Yes.
 Q  There were the two men at that time?
 A  That one was right behind this car (indicating), and the {1504} other one right behind this one (indicating).
 Q  Were they in the same general positions they were the first time you saw them?
 A  Not the same position, but moved around the two cars, you know, and shooting back of it.
 Q  All right. Now, did you see any other people other than the ones you talked about while you were on the hill up to the time that you left and went to the area on the map that you have pointed out as "NB"; do you remember seeing any of the same people or any additional people, any other places on Government's Exhibit 71?
 A  Yeah, Dino.
 Q  Where was Dino?
 A  I think he was around -- let's see. I am not sure, probably around here (indicating), around the cars. I am not sure. Around the area (indicating) -- I saw him, yeah, the cars there.
 Q  All right. It is correct your response is by the cars, in that general area. Would you point out on the map the area that you are referring to so that the jury will be able to see?
 A  Right here (indicating).
 Q  All rights Can I draw a circle here approximately that you were, generally?
 A  (Indicating).
 Q  All right. Let's make your circle very dark here, and who {1505} was in that general area?
 A  Dino.
 Q  I am going to put the word "Dino" there. Now, what was Dino doing?
 A  He was shooting.
 Q  He was shooting.
 Do you remember what, would you describe for the jury the kind of weapon that he had that he was shooting with at that time?
 A  It was a big rifle, big stock, just big.
 Q  Big, is that right?
 A  Yes.
 Q  All right, big stock, big rifle?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Had you ever seen it before?
 A  You mean before June 26th?
 Q  Yes, before June 26th.
 A  No.
 Q  Had you seen it before that very moment on June 26th, had you seen it earlier any time?
 A  Yeah. It was up here by these bushes here (indicating). We split up, and we were running over here (indicating).
 Q  Yes. He had it at that time, and you saw it at that time, this same one?
 A  Yes.
{1506}
 Q  So you saw it when you were fairly close together up there, when you split up, is that right?
 A  Right.
 Q  And that's how you can describe it?
 A  This big rifle, and clip, I think it was, clip put in from the top.
 Q  It was a big rifle and a clip that you put in from the top?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Now, was there anybody else -- did you see anybody in the same general area that you saw Dino?
 A  Leonard.
 Q  You saw Leonard?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Where was Leonard?
 A  Right here (indicating).
 Q  All right. Now, did you see anybody else?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. Now, would you describe the firing that you have just referred to, would you describe to the jury what the firing sounded like.
 A  Kind of fast.
 Q  Kind of fast, all right.
 How many shots did you see or hear when you were looking over here (indicating) at the time we are now talking about?
{1507}
 A  It was just off and on, about, you know, five shots and then stop, and then shooting back to the Indians here (indicating), and get down; and that side stop, shot five more, some like pretty fast. I don't know how many rounds. We shot back again.
 Q  It sounded pretty fast.
 Where was it that it sounded pretty fast?
 A  Around here (indicating).
 Q  All right. The area where Dino and Leonard were, is that the area you are pointing out?
 A  Yes.
 Q  You are very clear it didn't sound like it was fast down here (indicating), is that a fair conclusion for me to draw?
 A  This was fast, but not, you know, really fast, just kind of like, like, like -- (indicating). It was kind of fast, not as fast as down where it was fast.
{1508}
 Q  Compared to the two then, that's what you're saying. This one was faster than this one, is that a fair conclusion from what you just said?
 A  Yeah. I guess so.
 Q  I just want what your answer is, what you remember, not what I said.
 MR. TAIKEFF:  May I make the suggestion, since the chart is not playing the important role it was 10 or 15 minutes ago, could we have the benefit of the use of the microphone in the witness box because some of the answers are not audible here.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Were there any other individuals that you saw while you were up on top of the hill doing anything other than what you have told the jury up to this point, Norman? Do you remember any other people doing --
 A  Besides those two I just said?
 Q  Yes.
 A  No.
 Q  Do you remember seeing anybody else firing?
 A  You mean besides those? Yeah. The agents. They were firing.
 Q  Besides the ones you've talked about, any others?
 A  No.
 Q  Now I'm going to show you what has been marked, first of all, as Government's Exhibit 29A ask you whether or not you have {1509} a weapon of this general description before?
 A  Yeah. It looked like that.
 Q  When you say it looked like this, what is it? You tell the jury.
 A  It was long. It was a big stock.
 Q  And what time are you referring to now that you're talking about?
 A  You mean when I first saw it?
 Q  Yes.
 A  It was right up there (indicating).
 Q  Who was it that had a weapon generally this description?
 A  That looked like that?
 Q  Yes.
 A  Dino.
 Q  And is it a weapon that generally looks like that that you saw him with at the time we just finished talking about? Did he have the same weapon of the same general description that you saw him with earlier?
 A  You mean from up there (indicating)?
 Q  Yes.
 A  I don't know. It was long. Couldn't hardly see. It might have been. I don't know.
 Q  You don't know for sure. All right.
 Now I look at this and I ask you from your own knowledge, because you were the one that said that a clip went {} in and you used a motion, is that the kind of general type of situation as to how you would load this kind of a weapon from the clip from the top?
 A  Yeah. From the top.
 Q  So this kind of a weapon would meet the description with reference to the clip in the top that you described a while ago, too, is that right?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Now I'm going to show you what has been marked as Government's Exhibit 37A and ask you whether or not just from a general description have you seen a weapon that resembles one of this general description?
 A  You mean did that look like --
 Q  I'm just asking you, Norman, whether or not you have ever seen a weapon on this day or before that we're talking about that generally looked like this kind of a weapon?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And would you tell us where it was and with whom that you saw a weapon that was generally of this description?
 A  Bob.
 Q  And when you refer to Bob, who are we referring to?
 A  Robideau.
 Q  Where was it that you saw Bob with a weapon that fit this general description, if you remember?
 A  No, I don't remember. I just remember seeing that with him.
{1511}
 Q  Now what did you do when you got to the point, and you went with Bob, is that right? When you got to the point that I we've marked on the map as "NB," who was with you at that time?
 A  Mike Anderson.
 Q  What if anything did you and Mike do?
 A  We were just waiting because they were coming in that direction, people.
 Q  And did you see anybody while you were there in that area once you got down there where the area we've marked as "NB"?
 A  Besides meeting Mike there?
 Q  Yes.
 A  No.
 Q  Did you see anybody while you were down there?
 A  No.
 Q  How long approximately did you stay down there before you saw anyone? When was it that you first saw anyone after the two of you went down to that area? Were you there for some time?
 A  Yeah. Was there about, about an hour, two hours. It was long time but I don't know.
 Q  It was a long time?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Maybe an hour to two hours?
 A  I don't know. Maybe. It was a long time.
{1512}
 Q  These are all approximations that you're giving, is that right?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Just to the best that you can remember?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Now did you see anybody other than your companion during that time that you were there, see anybody else?
 A  Yeah. Was Norman Charles.
 Q  All right. How long after the two of you were there approximately, that you best can remember was it before you saw Norman Charles?
 A  I think it was Wish. It was one of them. It was Wish. No. It was Norman. I don't know.
  About an hour and a half, two hours. It was a long time.
 Q  Long time. All right.
 And you tell me who it was and what you did.
 A  You mean that came?
 Q  Yes. Who came?
 A  It was --
 Q  Did you learn something at that time that might be of help to you as to who it was?
 A  Yeah. Mike came. Not Mike, Norman. He told me that Joe had been hit, you know, he's dead.
 Q  So you know it was Norman. There isn't any question in {1513} your mind about that, is that right?
 A  I don't know. I can't remember.
 Q  You don't know for sure?
 A  I don't know. I don't know.
 Q  What if anything then did you do next?
 A  Well, we went to, he took us, said, "Let's go back to camp." So we went to camp and got a tent.
 Q  All right.
 Would you point out then where it was you were. Let's start from where you were.
 A  (Indicating.)
 Q  All right. You're pointing out the area generally with a circle marked "NB". And where from there did you go?
 A  (Indicating.)
 Q  You went back to the general area where the tents were, is that right?
 A  Right.
 Q  Now what was it that you saw -- withdraw that.
 Who was it that you saw when you got back to the tent area? Who were the people, if any, that you saw when you got back there?
 A  You mean, all the people that I saw?
 Q  Yes. Who are the first people that you saw or persons that saw?
 A  Was Bob, Dino, Leonard. That is all. Bob, Dino, Leonard and {1514} Wish. It was Wish or Norman. I can't remember.
 Q  But you're sure about Leonard, Bob and Dino, is that right?
 A  Right. They were at camp there
 Q  They were there when you got there, is that right?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Now what if anything did you observe them doing at this particular time?
 A  They were loading a van. It was a van.
 Q  Had you seen the red and white -- van at some time on any other day that you're now referring to? Did you see that red and white van before?
 A  (No response.)
 Q  The van that you're referring to that they were loading.
 A  Yes.
 Q  When had you seen it before?
 A  I don't know. It was before June 24.
 Q  Who had you seen with the van on those occasions before rune 26th? Do you know whose van it was?
 A  I think it was Leonard, but I'm not sure.
 Q  And you seen Leonard drive it while you were at Jumping Bull's?
 A  Yeah. I saw him drive it. Once.
 Q  Now I want to take you back just for a moment from the point we are now and ask you whether or not when you were here {1515} on the top of the hill did you see any other vehicles other than the ones that you have told the jury about? In the general area of the Jumping Bull property. Not out on the highway or back here (indicating) or cross the creek and down on the other road but in the general area of the Jumping Bull's do you remember seeing any other cars than the ones that we have talked about up to this point while you were on the hill from the time you got there until the time you left?
 A  It was around the houses I saw that red and white car.
 Q  That's the same one we're talking about now?
 A  I remember seeing it around there.
 Q  Would you point out in a circle generally where you best recall, if you do, if you don't I'm not I don't want you in any way to do anything other than what you best can remember.
 A  Yeah. Around there. Around the houses around there.
 Q  Around the houses area?
 A  Yeah. Around the area.
 Q  Is that as you best recall?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  When was it that you saw the red and white van?
 A  It was the first time when I was running up the hill. The first time when you were running up with Joe. Was there anybody around the red and white van?
 A  All right.
 Q  So that the red and white van was not down in the tent are {1516} in the morning while you were cutting, chopping wood and doing those things?
 MR. TAIKEFF:  Objection to that question, Your Honor. It's both leading and assumes facts not in evidence.
 MR. HULTMAN:  I withdraw the question. I withdraw the question.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Did you see the red and white van down the tent area in the morning?
 A  No. I don't know. Got up, then we were going to eat and then we heard the shots.
 Q  Now what was it that they were loading? Do you remember what they were loading at the time we're now talking about, what the objects were?
 A  Clothes, CB and food I guess. I don't know. Just loading. What I mostly saw was the clothes.
 Q  Now do you remember any other car or cars that were in the general area of the tent area?
 A  There was a green car.
 Q  Now was that the same green car that you talked about earlier, or yesterday when you said that you went and got the weapon that you got?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Is that the same green car?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And I'm going to show you now what has been marked as {1517} Government's Exhibit No. 55 and it is marked as page 23 and also with an orange "1" on it and ask you whether or not you have seen that particular car before?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And would you tell the jury what it is, what car that is.
 A  It's a green car.
 Q  Is that the same green car that you just now were talking about?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Now is that green car in generally the same place that it was that you're now testifying to?
 A  Same.
 Q  Is that where you saw it? Look at the area around it and see if you recognize the area.
 A  Yeah. I think so; yeah. Yeah.
 Q  Now do you remember seeing any objects of any kind on or about or in the green car at the time we're now talking about?
 A  There. No.
 Q  Did you still have your weapon?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  What if anything did you do with your weapon?
 A  Well, I put it on that green car there.
 Q  All right. So that if I were to show you again the same picture, {1518} do you see any weapon on that green car?
 A  Yeah. There (indicating).
 Q  Is that the weapon to the best of your knowledge?
 A  Looks like it.
 Q  It looks like it anyway?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right.
 Now do you remember any other objects that were there, if any, at the time you put the rifle that you had secured from the green car and had in your possession up to that time and left on the hood of the green car, do you remember seeing anything else there from your own recollection at that time?
 A  I don't remember.
 THE COURT:  The Court is in recess until 11:10.
 (Recess taken.)
{1519}
 THE COURT:  Counsel ready to proceed?
 MR. HULTMAN:  Government is, Your Honor.
 MR. TAIKEFF:  Yes, Your Honor.
 THE COURT:  Bring the jury in.
 (Whereupon, the jury was brought into the courtroom.)
 THE COURT:  You may proceed.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Norman, I believe we were talking about some automobiles, and I had showed you a Government Exhibit a little earlier in a big book, and there is one that's a separate item. And I just want you to look at it for a second. It's Government's Exhibit 13-B. Is the automobile that portrayed in 13-B the same green automobile that you've been talking about?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And on Government's Exhibit B is a rifle, and there are some letters. Next to it is -12. Is that the weapon that you had been referring to?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And in the earlier descriptions and discussions?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. Now, we talked about another automobile, red and white van. Do you recall?
A  (No response.)
 Q  I'm going to show you what's been marked as Government's Exhibit 12 and ask you whether or not you in that photograph see {1520} anything that you would recognize?
 A  Yeah. That van there.
 Q  All right. Is that the red and white van generally that you've been discussing?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Does it generally give the appearance of being the one that you were talking about?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. Now, I'm going to show you what's boa marked Defendant's Exhibit 93 and I want you to look at the scene that is portrayed there, and the automobiles that are portrayed there, and ask you whether or not you recognize the general scene that is portrayed in that exhibit?
 A  Are these the junk cars here (indicating)?
 Q  Well, I'm supposed to ask the questions and you tell us. Not you ask me.
 A  Yeah. I guess these are junked cars that I saw.
 Q  Go ahead and give you answer, whatever you answer is.
 A  (No response.)
 Q  Do you recognize, take a look at the photo and the scene that's there, the area, the ground, the hills, whatever is shown there. Do you recognize anything there?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. Would you tell the jury what it is you recognize Defendants Exhibit 93?
{1521}
 A  The hill here (indicating).
 Q  Yes. What is the area at the top of the picture that you are pointing at?
 A  The houses.
 Q  All right. Is that the general area of the houses that you wore referring to in your earlier testimony?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And if you were, is that the general area where you were during this time that you were talking about that you were up by the houses?
 A  Up there (indicating)?
 Q  Yes.
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. Now, if you looked down from the top of this photo, which is the area whore you said you were, do you recognize the area that's in the foreground of this picture where these automobiles are down?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Could you turn, and on Government's Exhibit No. 71, and I seem to have lost the pointer.
 MR. TAIKEFF:  I put it on the ledge below the map, Your Honor.
 MR. HULTMAN:  Thank you, Counsel.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Would you point out to the jury what it is that is portrayed in that exhibit.
{1522}
 A  (Indicating.)
 Q  All right.
 MR. HULTMAN:  Let the record show that he's pointing out the row of abandoned cars on Exhibit 71.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Now, let me put a 93 at that point and it will coincide with the exhibit that ho has just referred to.
 Now, do you remember seeing those cars on any occasion that you were in Jumping Bull's? Those junked cars?
 A  You mean real close or just seeing them?
 Q  Did you ever go by them, over walk by them?
 A  No.
 Q  Did you ever see them from any other place while you were there at Jumping Bull's?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Where were you when you saw them?
 A  Right around up there? the area where the houses are.
 Q  All right. And is, do you see anything different in this picture than what you remember seeing all the times you were up at the housing area that generally what you remember you saw?
 A  What?
 Q  Is this generally what you saw, some abandoned or junked cars down there?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Now, I'm going to ask you point blank, did you ever remember {1523} specifically seeing the car that is in the center of this picture?
 A  No.
 Q  Are you sure about that? Is there any question, have you ever seen that car that you can remember at all?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. Did you see it at any time on the 26th of June, 1975 that we're talking about?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. Now, there is one other weapon that I wish to show you, and this has been marked as Government's Exhibit 30-S for the record. You testified that you saw the man who did not have the hand gun down where the two cars were here, I believe as somebody who had a gun that he was pumping; is that right?
 A  Right.
 Q  Do you remember that?
 A  Right.
 Q  Now, I want to ask you whether or not, I'm not asking you that this is the weapon because you wouldn't know, there's no way for you to know whether this would be that gun, is there?
 A  No.
 Q  Because you only saw it from that distance. And all you indicated you saw was a man with a rifle pumping it; is that right?
{1524}
 A  Right.
 Q  Now, just in a general way, would this weapon here fit the general description of what you saw and remembered at that time, just generally?
 A  What does that mean?
 Q  Well, it means whatever it means to you. Does this particular gun have something that could be pumped?
 A  Yeah. It has something that can be pumped.
 Q  All right. And is it a rifle of some kind?
 A  Yes, it's a rifle.
 Q  All right. And is that what you remember the weapon being that the man, the second man had?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And where was it that he was standing when you observed him?
 A  That car there (indicating).
 Q  All right. Will you come and tell us which car it was again so that the record might show. You can just point to it with your finger.
 A  (Indicating).
 MR. HULTMAN:  Let the record show that he's pointing to the object that indicates the car on the right-hand side as you view the map farthest to the south, and the one that is pointed in the general direction of the houses to the general direction of east by southeast.
{1525}
 Your Honor, at this time the Government would offer into evidence Government Exhibits 30-AA, 29-A, 37-A, 32-A and 69-A.
 MR. TAIKEFF:  Assuming, Your Honor, that those numbers represent the objects which this witness has testified L to, there's no objection.
 MR. HULTMAN:  They do, Your Honor.
 MR. TAIKEFF:  No objection.
 THE COURT:  Would you state the exhibits again.
 MR. HULTMAN:  And exhibits that other witnesses have previously identified and referred to.
 Exhibits 29-A, 30-AA, 29-A, 37-A, 32-A and 69-A.
 30-AA, 29-A, 37-A, 32-A and 69-A.
 THE COURT:  Exhibits 29-A, 30-AA, 32-A, 37-A and 69-A are received.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Now, I want to go back to the point where you are at the red and white van. Do you remember, I believe we were talking when you were at the red and white van.
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And there was some other people there when you got there; is that right?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Now, what, do you recall anything more specific than what you've indicated up to this point that anyone was doing in your presence at that time other than loading the van?
{1526}
 A  What do you mean?
 Q  Was there any discussion of any kind as to what you were going to do or where you were going to go?
 A  Yeah. Leonard said, you know, there's no way out because there's, you know, we are just surrounded. We didn't know what so do. And I don't know, we were surrounded.
 He said, "There's only one way out," you know. "Let' try it." "So let's get in the car, we'll make a run for it.
 Q  Now, who was it that said that?
 A  Leonard.
 Q  All right. And what if anything did happen after that?
 A  We told him that, you know, we're not going to make it. There's no way we're going to got out. So he changed his mind, we changed our minds, too. And we started going, started going oh, kind of southeast to the woods.
 Q  All right. Would you now with the pointer indicate the general direction then that you started to leave by.
 A  (Indicating).
 Q  All right. Now, I want to ask you now, and let's talk about each individual at a time, and I think it might be a little clearer, who it was that left with you. Let's start with Leonard. Did Leonard leave? Did you go, was he a part of the group that left?
 A  When all of us left?
 Q  Yes.
{1527}
 A  Yeah. There was Leonard.
 Q  All right. Let's just talk about Leonard for a second.
 A  Yeah. It was Leonard.
 Q  Did Leonard have anything with him when you left?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  What was it?
 A  It was a gun, rifle.
 Q  All right. And will you describe it for the jury.
 A  What I said it looked like, an M-16.
 Q  All right. The same general description of the one you had seen earlier in the day?
 A  Yeah. Right.
 Q  Who else left with you?
 A  Dino.
 Q  And when you talked about the same rifle that Leonard had with him during the day, I want to take you back to the time that you saw Leonard in the area that was marked with a "P", which was this area with this circle here (indicating). Did he have the same type of weapon with him when he was at this point?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. And now he has a similar weapon with him when you leave; is that right?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Now, Dino was the second person that you said left with you; {1528} is that right?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  You all left together, all right.
 Did he have anything with him when you left?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And would you tell the jury what it was that he had?
 A  It was a rifle.
 Q  And do you remember what description, would you tell the jury the description of the rifle he had.
 A  It was that big one like I said last time.
 Q  All right. And that's the same one you described before; is that right?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Now, who else left with you together?
 A  Mike.
 Q  All right. And do you remember whether or not Mike had any weapon with him?
 A  Yeah, I think so. I'm not sure.
 Q  All right. Let's talk about somebody else and then go back and maybe it will help you remember.
 Was there anybody else in the group? Talking about the men now?
 A  Yeah. Wish.
 Q  All right. And did Wish have any weapon of any kind?
 A  No.
{1529}
 Q  Did you ever see Wish at any time during the time that he was at Jumping Bull's with a weapon?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. I guess I didn't ask you, did you have a weapon?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And what weapon did you have?
 A  35.
 Q  When you say "35", is this something different from the weapon that you have described and talked about earlier? Is it a different weapon than the 22 you wore talking about?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Well, now, where was it and when was it that you got a 35?
 A  It was when I came back to the camp. Norman came.
 Q  All right. You said that when I showed you what was Government's 13-B, I believe that that was the 22 that you have been carrying all the day, was it not?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And you put it on the hood there; is that right?
 A  Right.
 Q  And did you leave it there?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And have you ever had anything to do with the weapon itself along the trail, did you ever see it along the trail again as you left that day, or the next day, or the next day?
{1530}
 A  No, I don't think so.
 Q  All right.
 A  Might have been. I don't know.
 Q  All right. So the last you knew you left it here on this hood; is that right?
 A  Right.
 Q  All right. So now you are talking about a weapon that's different from this one; is that right?
 A  Right.
 Q  All right. Now, would you describe that as best you can for the jury.
 A  Well, it's a small rifle and bolt action (indicating).
 Q  All right. And where did you get that weapon?
 A  I think it was one of the tents, yeah, it was a tent I think.
 Q  All right. Now, was there anybody else, any of the men who left with you that we haven't discussed up to this point? Did Bob leave with you?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. And did Bob have a weapon of any kind?
 A  Yeah. It was a shotgun.
 Q  And do you remember anything in particular about that shotgun?
  No. Just a pump. It was a big shotgun.
{1531}
 Q  It was a big shotgun and it had a pump you indicated; is that right?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Had you ever seen that shotgun before?
 A  No.
 Q  In all of the weapons that all the times you'd been at Jumping Bull's?
 A  No.
 Q  So this was the very first time you had seen it?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  No question in your mind about that, is there?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. I'm going to show you now what has been marked as Government's Exhibit 36-A and I'll ask you to look at it. Is this a weapon that has one of those pumps that you indicated on earlier occasion?
{1532}
 A  What?
 Q  Is it one of those weapons that has a pump?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  I would like you to look at the end of it, and I would like you to look at it just in general; and I would ask you, you were saying that Bob had a shotgun with him that you had seen for the first time. Was it a shotgun that in some way or any way is similar to the one that I have now?
 A  It had the pump, the pump is.
 Q  All right. You wouldn't know whether or not this was the one or not, would you?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. Now, did Bob have anything else, did he carry anything else?
 A  Yeah, he had a rifle. That was a rifle.
 Q  All right. Would you describe to the jury what that rifle looked like, as you recall?
 A  I knew it was a rifle, but I don't know what kind it was, wouldn't remember.
 Q  All right. Do you remember anything about the rifle itself, anything that you might recall in your mind as you think about it, that might describe it in any way?
 A  No, I can't.
 Q  All right. Had you ever seen it before that time?
 A  I think -- I am not sure, but I think it was the one I {1533} told you he had before. I am not sure.
 Q  You are not sure, is that right?
 A  I can't remember.
 Q  That's a fair answer, that you are not sure?
 A  Yes.
 Q  That's your best answer, is that right?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Now, we have talked about Leonard, we have talked about Bob, we have talked about Dino, we have talked about yourself. Were there any other men or young men that went with you?
 A  Norman.
 Q  All right. Now, did Norman have any weapon of any kind?
 A  Yeah, he had a rifle.
 Q  Do you remember anything about that rifle, could you describe anything you remember to the jury?
 A  It was a long one, a long rifle. It had a bolt action too (indicating).
 MR. HULTMAN:  All right.
 (Counsel confer.)
 MR. HULTMAN:  Your Honor, let the record reflect that 37-A was already in evidence when I made my last offer, and I didn't realize that, so that it was already in evidence, your Honor.
 THE COURT:  I am aware of that.
 MR. HULTMAN:  All right, sir.
{1534}
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) I am going to show you what has been marked as Government's Exhibit 69-A, and ask you whether or not this weapon has a type of action of the kind that you are just describing?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Do you remember seeing the weapon that you are just referring to with anybody earlier that day, had you seen that weapon before that you are talking about right now?
 A  That one there?
 Q  No, no. I am asking you, the weapon that you have been describing to the jury, do you remember which one of your group we were just talking about that had a rifle in leaving, that had a bolt type of action?
 A  Norman?
 Q  I am sorry?
 A  Talking about Norman?
 Q  I am asking you, are you talking about Norman now? I wanted to make sure that there is no confusion. Let's talk about Norman.
 Did Norman have a gun when he left?
 A  Yeah, he had a rifle.
 Q  What do you remember about that rifle?
 A  It was long and had a bolt action.
 Q  Had you seen that one earlier in the day?
 A  Yeah, I think so. I am not sure.
{1535}
 Q  Norman was up on the hill with you at the time all the firing was going on, wasn't he?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Do you remember what kind of a weapon he had at that time?.
 A  Yes, I think it was the same one he had.
 Q  Would that be your best recollection?
 A  You mean the one he carried out?
 Q  Yes.
 A  Yeah, I think it is the same one he had, yes.
 Q  It is the one that had a bolt action?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Would it be fair for me to conclude that it would be a weapon generally, just in general of a kind like this with a bolt, at least a bolt?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Do you remember anything else about the particular weapon that he had during the day, description-wise, that you would recall or that you recall at that time?
 A  I don't understand.
 Q  Was there anything else you remember about the weapon that he had?
 A  No.
 Q  All right, very fine.
 Now, we mentioned for just a moment Wish, did we not?
 A  Yes.
{1536}
 Q  He was in the group, was he not?
 A  Yes
 Q  And I believe you said he didn't have any weapon?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. Did he carry anything out?
 A  He was carrying out a bag.
 Q  Could you describe to the jury generally what it was he carried out?
 A  It was a bag, about this big (indicating), had a handle on top where you could carry it.
 Q  All right. Did any of the rest of you carry that bag at any time?
 A  No, just until we got out, you know, started going back to the hill.
 Q  Did you know any time during the time what was in that bag?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. Now, was there anybody else that we haven't discussed up to this point?
 A  I think we talked about everybody that was there.
 Q  All right. Here there any -- let's make sure now so there isn't any question. We have talked about Leonard, right?
 A  Yes.
 Q  We have talked about Bob?
 A  Yes.
{1537}
 Q  You have testified about Dino?
 A  Yes.
 Q  We have talked about Wish?
 A  Yes.
 Q  We talked about Norman?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And have we talked about Anderson?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. Now, was there any other men or boys that went out with you?
 A  Yeah, I went out with them.
 Q  And you yourself?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Now --
 A  (Interrupting) You should have asked me that.
 Q  All right. Were there any women or girls that went out with you?
 A  Well, right after we were going out we were walking, like I pointed --
 Q  (Interrupting) Um-hum.
 A  (Continuing) -- we were walking in that direction, when we met them about a hundred yards from camp.
 Q  Was this the first time you had now seen them?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  From the time that you left when you heard the shots?
{1538}
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. Now, would you point out, if you can, just generally where it is you now saw the people that you are now referring to, if you can, on the map -- if you can't -- show us wherever it would be?
 A  Little bit here (indicating), little bit higher, where the corner is down there (indicating).
 Q  little bit higher, a little off Government's Exhibit 71?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And where with relationship to the creek would that have been?
 A  It was right by the creek there. We asked them why they were coming back, and they told us that they had the roads blocked off and there was no way out. We were just there, and they were coming. We didn't know what to do, you know. That would be the end of us, but we got together and told Jimmy to give himself up because they might hurt him or might shoot him.
 Q  Now, when you say "we", were you close to Little Jimmy yourself?
 A  Yes.
 Q  You were very close to him, were you not?
 A  Yeah, I guess so, yeah.
 Q  Kind of like an older brother, would that be a fair conclusion on my part?
 A  Yeah.
{1539}
 Q  And did you have conversation with Little Jimmy at that time?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right, and were you in fact the one who told him what you thought he ought to do?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. So what, if anything, then did Little Jimmy do?
 A  Well, he went back to where -- towards the houses, and we heard some shots and we didn't know what to think. We thought he might have got shot, so we stood there, and we sat down and sat in a circle and started praying, you know, all of us, that, you know, they tell us -- ask our creator to help us get out. So we were all there sitting there praying and saw an eagle come down, big eagle, so he came down; and I saw -- then he flew kind of south, southeast, or flew -- I don't know, just followed it across some creeks and we were kind of like bending over real low and could tell the people were out there; and we were just quiet, so you know, we were all scared; and wasn't -- all I was thinking about was our sisters, you know, and we crossed through a road. There was a culvert. It was big enough so you could crawl through, so we crawled through; and we went to this tree -- right across, about 10 yards from the road, 20 yards, there was two trees, two big trees; and some of us went and climbed the tree and we were sitting there, and there was -- Mike and Wish were still in the culvert, told {1540} them to stay there; and there was a plane on top of us, kept flying over, around us; and a couple of cars, you know, two cars went by and saw somebody on 16 looking out the window. They passed, the windows were rolled down, and one passed by this way (indicating).
 We were there for awhile, and we thought they saw us; and we thought, you know, didn't know what to think, you know, so we seen that plane was flying on top of usa right above us. guess he knew we were there, so started praying again, just our minds that something happened to that plane, I don't know, that's what I was praying, so the rest of the group were praying, so the plane, you know, took off, flew on over towards Pine Ridge.
 So as soon as that plane took off, we started running up the hill. Then we told the sisters, said, "Why don't you go ahead first?" So they took off, and we were down here (indicating), and this road here (indicating), about half a mile down, it was about down -- 14, 15 cars lined up.
 So we were running up the hill. They were shooting at us like -- I don't know, just shooting at us. We were out there in the open. We were running up.
 Q  How far away were you approximately from the people that you are now talking about?
 A  From the road there?
 Q  Yes.
{1541}
 A  I don't know. About half a mile, I guess. I don't know. It was pretty close then, not too far and not too close.
 Q  All right. Let me ask you a question, Norman. You said that you were in the culvert during this discussion, these remarks you have now made, is that right?
 A  I wasn't.
 Q  You weren't?
 A  No.
 Q  But some were?
 A  Yes.
 Q  You were in the trees, is that what you said?
 A  Yes.
 Q  It was heavy foliage, I believe you said, or something to that effect?
 A  What does that mean?
 Q  Could somebody from the airplane see you in the trees where you were?
 A  Yeah, they could.
 Q  What about in the culvert?
 A  No.
 Q  O.k. Now, did anybody in your group do any shooting at the time that you are now talking about?
 A  Yes, all the men, you know, because you know, we weren't worried about ourselves. We were just worried about, you know, our sisters, so we told them to go ahead; and while we were {1542} running up the hill, these go by us like a bee, go by, you know, like bees, you know, going by.
 We ran up a hill, a real little hill, with the rest of them there. We told the ladies or women to go ahead and keep running up that hill.
 Q  Let me ask you here:  Do you recall whether or not Mr. Anderson did any firing during the time that you were going up the hill?
 A  No, I don't think so, no.
 Q  Do you remember anybody that did any firing, did somebody do some firing when you went up the hill, I mean, in your group?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. Do you remember what kind of a weapon Mr. Anderson had?
 A  No, I don't know.
 Q  All right.
 A  And we were there --
 Q  (Interrupting) Let me ask you this question:  Do you remember the weapon that Joe Stuntz had during the day?
 A  You mean the 30-30?
 Q  At least when you left the tent area, 30-30, as you described it?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Did you ever see that weapon or one that looked like it any other time later during the times that we are now talking {1543} about?
 A  No. No, I don't think so.
 Q  All right. O.k.
 Now, what, if anything, did you do next?
 A  Well, we kind of like spread out, and they were shooting at us. We saw two cars that came off the road, and they -- I don't know, they were just -- they went around the hill we were going up, and were still shooting at the other people down there, so we got up and we ran up that hill.
 Then we met the sisters up there and started praying again and that eagle we saw --
 Q  (Interrupting) When you say the "sisters", would you tell the jury who these people were so that the jury will know who the sisters were?
 A  It was Jean Bordeau, and I just know the other girl by the name of Lynn and Neelock.
 Q  So there is three?
 A  All right.
 Q  And those are the three that lived in the tent area with you, is that right?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Now, what is the next thing that happened -- did you see any other people other than in your group that anybody talked with; from the point we are now talking about, did you run into anybody?
{1544}
 A  Yeah. It was getting kind of dark, and two people on a horse -- I don't know who they were, and I don't know -- there was me, Norman, we were looking over where those two cars were at. We were up on the hill here (indicating), they were down here (indicating). I think they were crawling up there and saw two horses and two people, and they are the ones that, you know, helped us out.
 Q  All right, and what happened next?
 A  So they helped us out and went down the hill, then we just started going into the hills. That's how we got out of there.
 Q  All right, and where did you next go, did you go to any house of any kind or in the vicinity of a house?
 A  Yeah. Went to the -- up in the hills for about five hours, six hours, long time, I don't know how long, about six hours, and we were walking, and we met this guy. He wasn't wearing shirt. We met him.
 Q  Did he talk to anybody?
 A  Yeah. He was with Bob, and I think, yeah, Bob gave him shotgun; and then he left. Then we started walking, walked through this big culvert, just walked through it, walked through that, walked for an hour and a half, walked over a bunch of hills, came up to a house; and there was an old man who was living there, I think about 85. He was old, and we asked him if we could stay there; and he could barely understand English, you know, asked him if we could stay there and he said {1545} "Yeah," and he let us stay there.
 Q  Do you remember what his name was or --
 A  (Interrupting) Yeah, it was -- let me see. I know his name. but I can't -- let's see.
{1546}
 Q  Maybe it will come to you as we talk a little more.
 Did you all stay there then at the cabin that night?
 A  The small cabin, real small.
 Q  About what was the size of it?
 A  About eight by ten. You know, pretty small. Real small.
 Q  Now what did you do with the weapons that night?
 A  Soon as we got there, Leonard asked me, "You want to go on security," you know, "You want to, want to go up there and watch out."
 Q  Who was it that asked you?
 A  Leonard. He didn't tell me, you know, he said, "Do you want to"; I said, "Yeah. I'll go up there." So me and Wish, we went up there for about three hours and we, you know, talking.
 Q  Where were your weapons put that night, if you recall?
 A  Well, right after security I come in and we switched with Norman. I don't know who the other one was. And I walked into there, saw some guns laying up against the wall.
 Q  All right.
 Did you see any pistols of any kind?
 A  Yeah. Saw two of them.
 Q  And would you describe the two pistols that you saw at this time. Let's take them one at a time and describe one and describe the other.
 A  One had a short barrel and the other one had a long barrel, {1547} pretty long barrel (indicating).
 Q  Did they look somewhat the same except one had a longer barrel and one a shorter barrel?
 A  I don't know. It was pretty dark. There was a kerosene lamp, you know. Just saw it. I didn't really look at it or nothing, I just saw it.
 Q  Had you ever seen those before?
 A  No.
 Q  I'm going to show you now what has been marked as Government's Exhibit 31A and Government's Exhibit 35A and ask you whether or not one of these has a long barrel and one has a short barrel?
 A  Yeah. One has a short barrel.
 Q  And with what little you saw that night, as you've described, did the weapons you saw at that time in some way resemble the two weapons that I now hold in my hands?
 A  I don't know. I saw one with a short barrel and I saw one with a long barrel.
 Q  All right. And that's as much as you remember, is that right?
 A  And I saw a holster but there was no gun in it.
 Q  So you saw one handgun with a short barrel, one with a long barrel and a holster. Those are the three things you saw?
 A  Yeah. The holster was just rolled up and laying there.
 Q  And you had not seen the two guns, the handguns before?
{1548}
 A  No. I don't think so.
 Q  All right.
 Did you see those two handguns at any time after on the table in the small cabin by the kerosene lamp that night? Did you see them the next day or the next day or the next day?
 A  No.
 Q  Now what if anything did you then do? Did you leave there the next day?
 A  Yeah. We left early in the morning, then we started walking. Then we, we hid in some bushes. Walked about three miles from there, four miles. We just laid down staying in some bushes. Stayed there all day. About 10:30 or something like that till it was dark. Then we started walking. Then we did the same thing again the next day, we laid under some bushes.
 Q  So is it fair that you did the walking in the nighttime and you stayed in the bushes and the other things in the daytime, is that right?
 A  Right. But, yeah. You might say that.
 Q  And where did you stay then the second night?
 A  We stayed out under some bushes. Then we started walking again. Next evening, came across day, see, we thought we were going to Manderson but we ended up in Pine Ridge.
 Q  How was it that you thought you were going to Manderson?
 A  Because we thought, old man. We asked him, "How do we get {1549} to Manderson?" And he showed us the way. We were supposed to take this trail but we took this one (indicating).
 Q  Did he help you in any way by giving any assistance other than just telling you on how you might find the way to Manderson?
 A  It was pretty hard to talk to him. Like, couldn't hardly understand English. And asked, you know, "Give us some food," and he said, "Yeah " He got us some food for one meal, you know. You know, enough for that day.
 Q  Did he write anything down for anybody, if you recall?
 A  No.
 Q  And so where did you stay then the next night?
 A  You mean after we left there?
 Q  Yes.
 A  Out in the bush, under the bushes.
 Q  Then where did you stay? Where did you go and stay then the next night or day?
 A  Well, right after that we were walking, came upon a place, you know, there was a hill. Then we looked over and it was Pine Ridge. So we didn't know what to do so we started walking this way again (indicating). We saw a house, I don't know, somebody knew who lived there but I don't know who. We went up to the door and asked if we could stay there and they said, "Yeah." So we stayed there that night. The man was kind of fat and his wife, too.
{1550}
 Q  And were there any other people there?
 A  There was a, I think two daughters there.
 Q  And would you describe what the lady looked like in terms of her size?
 A  You mean the old lady?
 Q  Yes.
 A  Yeah. Pretty fat. Yeah.
 Q  She was fairly heavy, is that right?
 A  Yeah. Yeah.
 Q  About how old were the daughters would you guess? Would they have been teen-agers?
 A  About 16, 17, around there.
 Q  Now where did you go from there?
 A  Somebody came and gave us a ride and went to Crow Dog's paradise.
 Q  Would you indicate who went. When you got a ride, who went? Did you all go in one car at one time?
 A  No. Me and Norman and I think it was Wish, Wish or Mike. It was a lady and a man that drove us out. I don't know who the lady was or the man with the car.
 Q  Do you know who went in the other group?
 A  Yeah. I think it was, there's three groups there went. We were first, I think. The girls were first. Second. Then I think it was Bob, Dino and Leonard got in Crow Dog's. Bob, Dino and Leonard went in one group, is that right?
{1551}
 A  Yeah. I think so.
 Q  Now I want to take you back to ask you a question or two on leaving the camp and getting to where you are now. Do you remember taking any other objects with you of any kind?
 A  Oh, it was a canteen; Yeah.
 Q  What happened to the canteen?
 A  It got dropped.
 Q  would you describe what the canteen looked like to the jury.
 A  I don't know. Had stripes on it, on the side.
 Q  Was it covered with anything?
 A  Yeah. It was some kind of cloth. I don't know.
 Q  All right. I'm going to show you marked as Government's Exhibit No. 17. Did you have any water in it when you left?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  I want you to look at this canteen and see whether or not you recognize it in any way.
 A  Yeah.
 Q  You do recognize it?
 A  Yeah. I think that's the same one.
 Q  And at least you left with one like this? Yeah.
 Q  Is that right?
 A  Yeah.
{1552}
 Q  Is there anything you remember about the canteen other than the cloth, the one you had with you on that occasion, specifically?
 A  What?
 Q  Did it have a strap of the kind that's here?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Like this?
 A  Yeah. It had a strap.
 Q  Was it this size?
 A  Yeah. I think that's it.
 Q  This general shape. You think this is it. All right.
 Where was it that you remember you dropped it or whatever you said you did? Do you remember about where that was or when it was?
 A  Yeah. When we started running up, ran about 100 yards. We was running. Yeah. That's when I dropped it about.
 Q  Now is that after you went through the culvert and you were going up the hill?
 A  Yeah.
 MR. HULTMAN:  I don't know whether, has 17 been offered yet?
 MR. TAIKEFF:  It is in evidence.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Now where did you go then in the car?
 A  I think it was Crow Dog's. Yeah. Crow Dog's.
 Q  And how long did you stay about at Crow Dog's?
{1553}
 A  Until the sun dance.
 Q  And when was the sun dance approximately, if you remember?
 A  August.
 Q  Early part of August?
 A  End of July.
 Q  End of July, early part of August?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right.
 Did any of the people go to any other place than Crow Dog's that was in your group?
 A  Yeah. As soon as we got there, you know, we all split up. And got there, like nothing happened. You know, we were just, went our ways and I think some went to Al's I, I didn't tell Crow Dog and I don't think anybody else told Crow Dog about what happened. I don't think they knew. Just like nothing happened. We just split up.
 Q  In fact, did you all discuss whether or not you would tell anybody anywhere along the trail?
 A  No.
 Q  But did anybody tell the old man? Would that have been Noah Wounded?
 A  Yeah. Noah Wounded; yeah.
 Q  Did anybody tell Noah, the old man, about the things that had happened earlier on the 26th?
{1554}
 A  I don't know. They might have. I don't know.
 Q  But you didn't hear anybody tell him?
 A  No. I didn't hear anybody.
 Q  What about the place that you stayed the second night, the next place that you stayed, did anybody tell them about how you got there in a group under these kind of circumstances lout of the woods and in the night? Did anybody tell those people that you know?
 A  I don't know.
 Q  You didn't hear anybody tell them anyway?
 A  No.
 Q  You definitely said that you didn't tell Crow Dog, is that right?
 A  No. I didn't tell Crow Dog.
 Q  Did anybody tell Crow Dog that you know?
 A  No. I don't think so. I didn't hear. No. I don't think so. I don't think they'd tell Crow Dog; no.
 Q  Any reason why you wouldn't tell Crow Dog? Because he's a spiritual man, you know. I don't know. Just good man. You know, probably didn't want to get him in trouble. I didn't.
 Q  Now you said, I believe you used the name Al, was that right?
 A  Yeah. Al.
 Q  Would that be Mr. Al Running?
{1555}
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Who was it that went to Mr. Al Running's place?
 A  I don't know. See, as soon as we got there, we got there in the night and I stayed at Leonard's at night and I don't know who went to Al's, but some of the people that we came with, you know, I don't know where they were at.
 Q  Did you go to Al's?
 A  Yeah. I went to Al's to visit.
 Q  We went to Al's? Who was at Al's that was in the group that went out on the 26th from the tent area?
 A  Neelock and Dino and Jeannie.
 Q  So Dino, was there any other men besides Dino? Did Bob go?
 A  Bob was there; yeah.
 Q  Bob and Dino were at Al's and you were at Al's, is that right?
 MR. TAIKEFF:  Objection, Your Honor.
 A  We're like --
 THE COURT:  Just a moment.
 MR. TAIKEFF:  I believe that is not what the testimony is.
 MR. HULTMAN:  If it wasn't, I certainly want it corrected.
 MR. TAIKEFF:  Could I confer with Mr. Hultman for a moment? {1556}
 MR. HULTMAN:  Yes. All right.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) When you referred to staying at night at Leonard's, this is up until this time we have been basically talking about when you used the word Leonard, Mr. Peltier, is it not? Leonard was Mr. Peltier. Leonard Peltier. The person that you have been talking about being with on the 26th and going --
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And so forth. Now you referred to Leonard, staying somewhere at Leonard's.
 A  Crow Dog.
 Q  This wasn't Mr. Peltier. This is now a new Leonard?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  This is Leonard Crow Dog's, the medicine man you're talking about?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  We want it made clear you didn't stay at Leonard Peltier's that night. It was Leonard Crow Dog's. All right.
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Now I want to ask you now, were there any other people -- did you leave Leonard's and then go to Al Running's, is that the way it happened?
 A  You mean Crow Dog's?
 Q  Yes.
 A  Yeah. I just went there to visit.
{1557}
 Q  Were there any others that stayed at Al Running's other than, I believe you said Bob and Dino. Was there anybody else that stayed at Crow Dog's that you know?
 A  Yeah. Neelock, then Jeannie. Like I stayed at Crow Dog' for awhile, then stayed at Al's. You know, just visiting, every once in awhile.
 Q  Is it fair for me to conclude from what you're saying that the people that went from the tent area with you stayed back and forth between Leonard's and Al Running's, is that a fair conclusion for me to draw?
 A  What do you mean, "stayed back"?
 Q  You said something about you were one place --
 A  Yeah. Just visiting.
 Q  Visiting back and forth?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Do you know at any other place that any of you stayed during the days following or during the sun dance and the days following Leonard's and Al Running's, do you know any place that anybody in the group stayed specifically?
 A  No. I was just -- no. No.
Q  I just have one last question. Has everything that you've told the jury yesterday and today been on the sacred pipe and been the truth?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Thank you. I have no further questions.
{1558}
 MR. TAIKEFF:  May I proceed, Your Honor?
 THE COURT:  You may proceed.
{1559}