US vs LEONARD PELTIER TRIAL TRANSCRIPT EXCERPTS Case Number CR77-3003

{JURY NOT PRESENT}BENCH
TESTIMONY NORMAN BROWN
TESTIMONY NORMAN BROWN CONT VOL 8
FURTHER TESTIMONY NORMAN BROWN VOL 22

MR. HULTMAN:  Your Honor, I just have one other item. {1383} I know the, I know the religious feeling of the young man because he's expressed it to me on both of the occasions that I have been with him. And I would like to know, Norman, whether or not, because of your feelings with reference to the pipe and your understanding of the oath, whether or not you have any wish of any kind, or whether it would have any influence on you in terms of the occasion itself, that you would take your oath on the pipe. Is that something that is very important to you?
 NORMAN BROWN:  Yeah.
 MR. HULTMAN:  I had a feeling of this, Your Honor, and that he had indicated a request indirectly of this in his discussion with me. And that's why I wanted to bring it to the attention of the Court at this time.
 THE COURT:  What is your response to that?
 NORMAN BROWN:  The pipe?
 THE COURT:  We don't have a pipe.
 THE CLERK:  May I make a suggestion in that regard, Your Honor? Rather than to put any undue influence on the inquiry of the man that gave a dissertation to the Court, a gentleman by the name of Mr. Peters regarding the pipe, if he would make a pipe available to me for this instance and I would have it at the bench when court reconvened.
 I guess the point I'm trying to make, I think maybe place a little bit undue emphasis if a pipe from the table, {1384} or pipe that's currently in the courtroom that's used. I just throw that out as my suggestion.
 MR. CROOKS:  I might observe, Ralph, that I think the pipe Mr. Peters has bean carrying is the pipe that's on counsel table.
 THE CLERK:  I would not refer to one in his possession but I believe there are other pipes in the courtroom. That's my understanding at least.
 NORMAN BROWN:  I think he wouldn't mind me holding the pipe.
 THE COURT:  Who would not mind?
 NORMAN BROWN:  Mr. Peters.
 THE CLERK:  Would not mind holding that pipe.
 THE COURT:  No. He said Mr. Peters wouldn't mind if you held the pipe.
 NORMAN BROWN:  Yeah.
 THE COURT:  You are talking just about to take the oath, is that what you are talking about?
 NORMAN BROWN:  Or to say to the pipe, like holding it.
 THE COURT:  But this is for the purpose of the oath that you are required to take?
 NORMAN BROWN:  Yeah.
 THE COURT:  You'll just take it to the pipe?
 NORMAN BROWN:  Yeah. Just like I'm holding it, but {1385} the pipe would be over here (indicating).
 THE COURT:  All right.
 THE CLERK:  You would wish to face the pipe? I will administer an oath to you to the effect that you swear on the holy pipe that you are about to tell the truth in all the proceedings in this case, and that would be the end of my oath.
 NORMAN BROWN:  Right.
 THE COURT:  Now, would you prefer to hold it, or would you prefer to hold the pipe when you do that?
 NORMAN BROWN:  No. I think we should ask him first what he would say then. If he says it's all right for me to hold it, then it's that way.
 THE COURT:  Well, Ralph, why don't you take care of that?
 THE CLERK:  Okay, sir.
 May I do it right now, Your Honor?
 THE COURT:  Do it right now.
 Does that take care of everything?
 MR. HULTMAN:  Yes, Your Honor.
 THE COURT:  I will make a brief explanation to the jury.
 MR. HULTMAN:  Yes, Your Honor.
 I have nothing further.
 THE COURT:  We will adjourn to the courtroom.
{1386}
 (Whereupon, the following proceedings were had in the courtroom without the presence of the jury:)
 MR. HULTMAN:  Your Honor, I do have a matter to approach the bench with all counsel before we proceed.
 THE COURT:  Mr. Hultman, did you state that you have a matter to take up at the bench?
 MR. HULTMAN:  Yes. Could we approach the bench, Your Honor?
 (Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the bench:)
 MR. HULTMAN:  Your Honor, I wanted to do this before anything did arise. I want to make the position of the Government clear that one, I think the events clearly indicate that the witness that is now to be examined is clearly a hostile witness to the United States. I think that goes without even saying.
 The fact, for example, that an interview was granted very readily to counsel of which I am not privy, and the fact that I have had no such interview at the request of the witness himself, would indicate --
 THE COURT:  You have not interviewed this witness?
 MR. HULTMAN:  No. I have not. I have, as I have reported on the record, had a conversation with him in which there was no discussion of the events themselves into which the witness will so indicate.
{1387}
 MR. TAIKEFF:  We understand from our interview of the witness that when Mr. Hultman appeared the witness said he wanted counsel. And Mr. Hultman said, quite properly we wish to note, that if that's what you want, then I must leave until you get counsel; and the witness told us that Mr. Hultman left immediately and in no way acted in any improper manner and paid respect to his request for counsel.
 So in fact there is no doubt about what Mr. Hultman is relating in that regard.
 MR. HULTMAN:  Secondly, Your Honor, I would want the record to reflect as again a basis for the request that I'm making that in chambers a moment ago when this witness came in the presence of the defendant himself, there was a very warm and a firm embrace immediately of the witness in crossing the room of the defendant himself.
 MR. LOWE:  There wasn't even any contact made.
 MR. TAIKEFF:  You are talking about in the Judge's chambers?
 THE COURT:  It was reported to me. I didn't see it.
 MR. HULTMAN:  Absolutely.
 THE COURT:  It was reported to me by one of my staff that there was a contact.
 MR. HULTMAN:  Firm embrace. The minute he walked into the room. I watched it all with my own eyes.
 THE COURT:  Just a moment.
{1388}
 Mr. Suby, would you approach the bench.
 (Mr. Suby approached the bench.)
 THE COURT:  You reported to me that there was some kind of a contact between the defendant and this next witness at the time they both came into chambers. Would you just state for the record the contact that you observed. You did not tell me, I don't know what the nature of it was.
 MR. SUBY:  That is correct, Your Honor. At the time the witness came in the room he approached the defendant, they embraced, shook hands. There was an exchange of words, lasted approximately five seconds or eight seconds or so, and they parted. And that was the extent of it.
 THE COURT:  Thank you.
 MR. LOWE:  May I ask something, because I just want to be sure of the time sequence, if we are talking about the same time frame. Was this about when we went to leave?
 MR. HULTMAN:  No. When the witness came in. The minute the witness came in.
 MR. LOWE:  The first time I saw the witness was when we were arising from the courtroom to go to the room. Was this an earlier time when he came into chambers?
 MR. HULTMAN:  No. It was the only -- the defendant was there.
 MR. TAIKEFF:  I never saw the witness. I don't dispute {1389} what Mr. Suby saw. I was just curious for my own place.
 MR. HULTMAN:  Plus the fact that there is an immunity matter to start with. There's no question this individual was there as a witness to participate in certain events. And for all of these reasons, Your Honor, I think that I ought to be given a measure of latitude under those circumstances that normally would not be the case.
 He is without any question a hostile witness if there ever was one.
 MR. TAIKEFF:  I would say this, Your Honor, and if he puts a question to him and he doesn't get any answers which he reasonably expects, and I think elaborate proceedings are not at the sidebar, because Mr. Hultman will, I'm sure, act appropriately in that regard, then I think in light of our interview the content of which we know, but Mr. Hultman doesn't know, it would be inappropriate for me to resist his application.
 So if Mr. Hultman moves in that direction after he attempts to get certain answers which he thinks he's entitled to, I think we can go right to it and get the testimony in.
 MR. LOWE:  Your Honor, may I state for the record, because I don't want the Court to think that I misstated something factually, the Clerk has just advised me that what I saw was not an embrace or a touching, it was when we were getting up and we were already walking towards the door. And {1390} the Clerk, Mr. Hanson, advises that I am correct that there was no touching there. That the touching that he observed and apparently Mr. Suby observed was while Mr. Peltier was still seated.
 MR. HULTMAN:  Yes. He was seated.
 MR. LOWE:  And I was facing the Court, and I simply didn't see that. And that's why I reported it, and I was astounded that there was any touching.
 MR. HULTMAN:  Oh, no, John, he was seated at the couch, and the witness came in and embraced.
 MR. LOWE:  There was no contact made at that time.
 MR. TAIKEFF:  All right. Essentially we've agreed with Mr. Hultman, subject to his effort on one critical issue, to get an answer which he is dissatisfied with, and I think we would consent to him taking that position with the witness.
 MR. HULTMAN:  My point is without any question, and I'm going to have to do some leading that normally, for example, I would never have to do with a witness, other than of this kind and nature. I think counsel understands that.
 MR. TAIKEFF:  I don't think that you will go beyond proper limits. We'll try to make only objections which are appropriate under these special circumstances.
 MR. HULTMAN:  Very good. Thank you.
{1391}
 (Whereupon, the following proceedings were had in the courtroom:)
 THE COURT:  The jury may be brought in.
 (Whereupon, at 3:13 o'clock, p.m., the jury returned to the courtroom; and the following further proceedings were had in the presence and hearing of the jury:)
 THE COURT:  I have two bits of information to give to the jury at this time. One is that, due to a personal appointment of one of the jurors, the Court will recess this afternoon for the day at 4:30; and the second point of information is that the next witness to be called will take the oath in a little different form than that which is usually administered.
 The law as expressed by the Rule states that before testifying every witness shall be required to declare that he will testify truthfully by oath or affirmation administered in a form calculated to awaken his conscience and impresses his mind with his duty to do so.
 The next witness, because of his religion, has requested that he be permitted to take his oath on the pipe, and that permission has been granted.
 The Government may proceed.
 MR. HULTMAN:  The Government calls Norman Brown, your Honor.
 THE CLERK:  Mr. Brown, you do swear on the sacred {1392} pipe that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth?
 THE WITNESS:  Yes.
 THE CLERK:  Would you be seated, sir?
NORMAN BROWN,
being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
 DIRECT EXAMINATION
By MR. HULTMAN:
 Q  Would you state to the jury your name, please?
 A  Norman Brown.
 Q  And where do you live, Mr. Brown?
 A  Minifarms, Arizona.
 Q  And about how long have you lived in Minifarms, Arizona?
 A  All my life.
 Q  Do you have some brothers and sisters?
 A  Right.
 Q  And would you tell the jury how many brothers and sisters you have?
 A  Six brothers and three sisters.
 Q  Mr. Brown, I have not discussed the facts of this event with you since the time in open court, have I?
 A  No.
 Q  What is your birth date?
 A  March 17th, 1960.
 Q  So you were just last week 17, is that right?
{1393}
 A  Right.
 Q  And how old would you have been on the 26th of June, 1975, two years ago?
 A  15.
 Q  How far in school have you gone?
 A  Sophomore.
 Q  Did you ever have an occasion during the year, 1975, to go from your home at Minifarms to some other place to attend any meeting of any kind?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Excuse me?
 A  Spiritual conference in Farmington, New Mexico.
 Q  And would you explain to the jury about when this was?
 A  I don't know. I don't remember.
 Q  Do you remember who it was that you met there and saw there?
 A  Who? What do you mean?
 Q  Any persons that you knew or recognized?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And would you tell the jury who it was that you recall specifically that you met there?
 A  Leonard.
 Q  Now, when you refer to "Leonard", would you tell the jury what his full name is?
 A  Leonard Peltier.
{1394}
 Q  And is he in the courtroom here today?
 A  Right.
 Q  And would you tell the jury where he is seated here in the courtroom?
 A  He is seated over there.
 MR. TAIKEFF:  The identification is conceded, your Honor.
 THE COURT:  Very well.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Had you known Mr. Peltier before?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And approximately how long had you known him?
 A  About four years then.
 Q  And where was it, if you recall, approximately four years before that you had met Mr. Peltier?
 A  Crow Dog sundance.
 Q  Was that a religious ceremony that you attended?
 A  Right.
 Q  And how old would you have been at that time?
 A  13.
 Q  And how did you go to the ceremonial, Crow Dog's, on that occasion?
 A  What do mean?
 Q  Did you go by yourself or did you go with somebody?
 A  Yes.
 Q  You went by yourself?
{1395}
 A  Yes. You mean four years ago?
 Q  Right.
 A  Yes.
 Q  When was the next occasion you were with Mr. Peltier?
 A  In Farmington.
 Q  And that's the time which we are now discussing, is that right?
 A  Right.
 Q  All right. Who else that you had known before did you see in Farmington?
 A  Dino and Joe.
 Q  So the jury will know, who is Dino?
 A  Butler.
 Q  And what was the next name that you used?
 A  Joe Stuntz.
 Q  Joe Stuntz?
 A  Yes.
 Q  How long had you known Dino?
 A  About four years too.
 Q  And where, Norman, did you meet Dino?
 A  The trials in Minneapolis on Banks and Means.
 Q  And about how old were you at that time?
 A  13.
 Q  Was the third person that you just mentioned named Bob, is that correct? I didn't quite hear. Was it Bob that you {1396} said?
 A  No.
 Q  Who was the third person?
 A  Joe.
 Q  Joe, all right.
 A  Yes.
 Q  Who is Joe?
 A  Stuntz.
 Q  And how long had you known Joe Stuntz?
 A  Four years.
 Q  And where did you first meet Joe?
 A  Sundance too.
 Q  And was that at Crow Dog's also?
 A  Right.
 Q  And had you known Joe then after meeting him at the sundance at Crow Dog's?
 A  Yes.
 Q  About how many times had you been with Joe?
 A  What do you mean?
 Q  About how many times or occasions had you been with Joe after that?
 A  Just in Farmington.
 Q  All right. Did you consider Joe to be a very close friend of yours?
 A  Right.
{1397}
 Q  Is he a brother of yours?
 A  Right.
 Q  Who else did you meet at Farmington that you had known before?
 A  Norman Charles.
 Q  Norman Charles?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And where had you met Norman Charles before?
 A  Sundance, Crow Dog's.
 Q  And had you had occasions to see him after that?
 A  Well, just in Farmington.
 Q  The next time was in Farmington. Who else did you see in Farmington that you had met before?
 A  That's all.
 Q  Now, did you meet some other people for the first time that you continued to know after being in Farmington?
 A  What?
 Q  Did you meet some new people that you continued to know after Farmington?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Would you tell the jury who those people were?
 A  Lynn.
 Q  And when you say "Lynn", do you know any additional name other than Lynn?
 A  No.
{1398}
 Q  All right.
 A  And Jean.
 Q  And do you know the person "Jean" by any other name?
 A  Bordeau.
 Q  How old was Lynn at the time you met her there to the best of your knowledge?
 A  Oh, about 17, 18.
 Q  And how old was Lynn?
 A  I just said that.
 Q  Who was the other person that you referred to?
 A  Jean.
 Q  How old is Jean?
 A  I don't know. I can't --
 Q  (Interrupting) Was she a young person?
 A  Right.
 Q  A young lady?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. Who else did you meet at that time that you continued to be with for some period of time?
 A  Wish.
 Q  And does Wish have another name?
 A  Yeah, Wilford Draper.
 Q  Wilford Draper. You know him by "Wish", is that right?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Is that what his friends knew him by?
{1399}
 A  Right.
 Q  All right. Who else?
 A  Mike Anderson.
 Q  Anyone else?
 A  Norman Charles.
 Q  Norman Charles?
 A  That's all. Bob Robideau.
 Q  Bob Robideau. Had you known Bob before?
 A  No.
 Q  The first time you met Bob Robideau?
 A  Right.
 Q  All right. Would you tell the jury -- did you later leave Farmington and go somewhere?
 A  Yeah, went to Oglala, South Dakota.
 Q  And do you remember about what time of the year, 1975, that was, what month approximately?
 A  About June.
 Q  Sometime in June?
 A  May.
 Q  1975?
 A  Yeah, about the second week in June.
 Q  Now, would you tell the jury who you left with -- did you leave with any other persons?
 A  Yeah, I left with all the people I named.
 Q  You left with the people that you have just named in {1400} response to my questions?
 A  Right.
 Q  All right, and would you tell the jury how you went, did you go in an automobile -- or automobile?
 A  Yeah, pickup with a camper on it.
 Q  All right, and who did that belong to?
 A  The pickup?
 Q  Yes.
 A  I don't know.
 Q  All right.
 A  Just got a ride.
 Q  Who went in the pickup with the camper, who were the persons?
 A  Joe and Leonard.
 Q  Was there anyone other than Joe and Leonard that went in the pickup?
 A  No, I can't remember.
 Q  Who did you go with -- did you go in that car?
 A  Yeah, I went in the pickup, yeah.
 Q  So you went with Joe and Leonard?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Now, the other people then basically went in a second car, is that right?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And do you remember what kind of a car that was or a {1401} description of that car?
 A  Well, it was an old car. It was a green car.
 Q  Now, where was it that -- did you go to a particular place once you got to South Dakota?
 A  Oglala, South Dakota.
 Q  And where in Oglala or in the vicinity did you go specifically?
 A  Jumping Bull, the ranch.
 Q  And had you ever been to the Jumping Bull ranch before?
 A  No.
 Q  Had you met the Jumping Bulls before?
 A  No.
 Q  What was it that you did once you got to Jumping Bulls?
 A  Got some tents and set up a place where we could stay.
 Q  And did the others that you have mentioned also participate and help you, and did you help them?
 A  Right.
 Q  I don't know whether I asked you specifically about Mike. Had you known Mike for quite some time?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  How long about -- when did you first meet or know Mike?
 A  About seven years ago, eight years ago.
 Q  And that's Mike Anderson?
 A  Right.
 Q  That I am referring to and you are responding to, right?
{1402}
 A  Right.
 Q  Where was it that you first met Mike Anderson?
 A  I can't remember where, but I met him a long time ago.
 Q  Would you know just generally where, for example, in what state?
 A  Oh, yeah, Arizona.
 Q  All right, and does he come from the same tribe or nation that you do?
 A  Right.
 Q  And do any of the others that you have mentioned come from the same tribe or nation?
 A  Right.
 Q  And which ones or ones would that be?
 A  Wish and Mike. Wish, be just Wish and Mike.
 Q  Wish, Mike and you come from that nation then?
 A  Right.
 Q  All right. What was the reason for setting up a camp at Crow Dog's?
 A  Crow Dog's?
 Q  I am sorry, at Jumping Bull's, I am sorry.
 A  We had no other place to stay, no room in the houses, and I don't know, just put up some tents.
 Q  I want you to turn around and look for a moment or two at what has been marked and entered as an exhibit in this case, Government's Exhibit No. 71; and ask you whether or not you {1403} recognize the general scene that's portrayed in that Government exhibit?
 A  What?
 Q  Have you previously seen a map of this kind and nature before, Norman?
 A  Yeah, right.
 Q  Now, I want you to look at it, and then I want to ask you whether or not you understand the area, the place that that represents?
 A  Right.
 Q  And would you tell the jury what it is or where it is?
 A  It is right up there (indicating) where it says "tents".
 Q  Is this generally a map of the Jumping Bull ranch that you talked about a minute ago?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right.
{1404}
 Q  And on that map can you show the jury where it was that you set up the tents that you have mentioned? There is a pointer and maybe that mxght be of a little help and assistance.
 Would you point out to the members of the jury where the tents were set up.
 A  (Indicating.)
 MR. HULTMAN:  Let the record show that the witness pointed out the area on Government's Exhibit 71 which is portrayed there as "Tents."
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) How many tents were set up at that time Norman?
 A  There was five tents.
 Q  Is that an approximation on your part?
 A  No. About six. No. Five. I don't know. Five or six.
 Q  Would you tell the jury starting with yourself who it was that lived in a particular tent. It was the same people, was it not, that came, that you went on the highway with from Farmington to live in the tent area generally speaking?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Tell the jury, first of all, what tent you lived in and with whom, if anyone?
 A  It was that box tent.
 Q  Did anyone stay with you in the box tent or you with them?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Would you tell the jury who those people were.
{1405}
 A  I can't remember.
 Q  Maybe if we talk about some of the others for a minute it might help.
 Was Wish in the tent area when you first set up the tents?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And did he stay there in the tent area itself all the time you were there?
 A  No. I don't think so.
 Q  Did Wish leave at some time, as far as being right in the tent area that we're now talking about, did he go sleep some other place?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Do you remember where that was?
 A  That was around Jumping Bull's place there at the housing.
 Q  And was that a tent in which he set up and he slept by himself, is that right?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Do you know why Wish left the tent area and set up a tent of his own out by Jumping Bull's house?
 A  At that time I didn't but now I do
 Q  You know from your own knowledge?
 A  From reading the papers now I know.
 Q  Well, I don't want you to respond to anything you may have {1406} read.
 A  You mean then?
 Q  Yes.
 A  No, I didn't.
 Q  All right.
 A  No.
 Q  Would you tell the jury a bit or two about Wish Draper. Was he a person who handled guns?
 A  No.
 Q  What kind of a person is Wish Draper, as you've known him?
 A  He's quiet and stays to himself. That's about all.
 Q  Now do you remember who stayed in any other tents, for example, let's talk about Dino for just a moment. In what tent and with whom did Dino stay down in the tent area?
 A  Stayed in his teepee.
 Q  In a teepee. Was there anybody that stayed with him?
 A  Yeah. Neelock.
 Q  Now were there any other tents that you recall that certain individuals stayed in?
 A  There is a little pup tent.
 Q  Was it an orange pup tent?
 A  Yeah. It was orange. It was Mike and Jimmy stayed there.
 Q  All right. Mike and Jimmy stayed in the orange pup tent. Who is Jimmy? Do you know him by another name, additional name?
{1407}
 A  Jimmy Zimmerman.
 Q  Jimmy Zimmerman.
 And how old at that time was Jimmy Zimmerman at the time we're talking about in 1975?
 A  11, 12.
 Q  Approximately 11 or 12 years old?
 A  Right.
 Q  Was he close to the person he stayed with?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Does this help in any way for you to remember who it was that you stayed with?
 A  In the green tent. In the orange tent, too, yeah.
 Q  Who stayed in that tent?
 A  Which tent?
 Q  In the orange tent we're still talking about. Did anybody else stay in the orange tent?
 A  Yeah. Mike and Jimmy.
 Q  Was there anybody else other than Mike and Little Jimmy?
 A  There was me. You know, that's, I slept where, I don't know just, I stayed with Jim some nights and some nights I'd stay in another tent. Like that.
 Q  All right. Did Leonard live down in the tent area?
 A  No.
{1408}
 Q  Where did he stay?
 A  In one of the houses up here.
 Q  Do you remember which one of the houses up there? Maybe I could ask you with a pointer to show the jury by each house, Norman, would you start here on this side and tell the jury and you point out the first house on the right-hand side. Do you remember, there is a green house on the right-hand side?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Tell the jury who it was that lived in the green house.
 A  Ivis and Angie Long Visitor.
 Q  Do you remember what the next house over was then?
 A  Yeah. It was --
 Q  Ttaybe there was a shed of some kind in between.
 A  Yeah. There was a shed.
 Q  Did anybody live in the shed?
 A  No.
 The next house is Jumping Bull's live there.
 Q  Do you remember what color a house that was?
 A  It was white.
 Q  What kind of white, was that sort of the largest house of all of them in the area?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  That's where Mr. and Mrs. Jumping Bull lived, is that right?
{1409}
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And was there another house then beyond where the Jumping Bulls lived?
 A  Yeah. Was a log house.
 Q  And would you point that house out to the jury so that the jury can see.
 A  (Indicating.)
 Q  And who was it that lived there?
 A  Dennis Banks.
 Q  Now is there another house then or a building of some kind still beyond the log house? Is there a house of some kind or a building over here?
 A  Right.
 Q  Was there anybody that lived in that place?
 A  No.
 Q  What was that? Do you know what that was, that building, at all?
 A  No.
 Q  Now down here to the, where I am now pointing is also on Government's Exhibit 71, a marking and some letters that refer to a residence. Do you remember who lived there?
 A  I knew it was Dusty lived there.
 Q  Was Dusty related in any way to anybody that you knew?
 A  Yeah. Jumping Bulls.
 Q  And was there a lady that, did his wife live in that {1410} residence, too?
 A  His wife?
 Q  Did he have a wife, Dusty?
 A  No.
 Q  Was there anybody else that lived there in that residence besides Dusty?
 A  Yeah. But I don't know the names. I saw the people around there.
 Q  Do you know how many people live there besides Dusty?
 A  About three other people I guess.
 Q  Now where was it that Leonard lived then up in the houses?
 A  I think it was that log cabin.
 Q  He lived in the log cabin.
 Now what was it that you did during the time up until the 26th of June, the day when some events happened? What did you do during that period of time generally from day to day and during the weeks that you were there? What did you do?
 A  Chopped wood, hauled water and pulled security.
 Q  Who was it that gave you any instructions as to pulling security?
 A  Well, Leonard asked me if I wanted to pull security. He didn't tell me or nothing, he said, "Do you want to," and I said, "Yeah. I'll pull security."
 Q  Now what would you do when you pulled security?
 A  I just walked around the camp and looked out for the roads, {1411} watched the cars and see how everybody is. I'd watch the camp, you know.
 Q  Were you armed?
 A  Yeah. And what kind of an arm would you take on those occasions?
 A  .22.
 Q  And did you take ammunition?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  What did you do at other times that you weren't involved in security? What did you do other times?
 A  Hauled water.
 Q  And chopped wood, is that right?
 A  Right.
 Q  You've named the same people who came from Farmington, or you came from Farmington with. Was there anybody else during the time that you lived in the tent area that lived in the tent area for any period of time other than the ones that you've mentioned?
 A  No. Just --
 Q  IF there was you don't recall, is that a fair answer?
 A  Yes. Yes.
 Q  There wasn't anybody else that lived there for any extended period of time, is that right, that you know?
 A  No.
 Q  What would the others do that, let's talk about the men {1412} for a little while, the men and the boys. What would the boys do other than security during the time that you were there? How would you spend your time?
 A  What?
 Q  How did you spend your time, the boys, the young men that you have referred to?
 A  Like set up camp, cut wood for the tents and, you know, haul water for the camp.
 Q  What did the older men do during this period of time, Leonard and Dino and Bob?
 A  They were up there in this housing. I don't know what they done. I mean, what they did.
 Q  Were you at various times in and out of the houses there on Jumping Bull's ranch?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Were you ever in the log house?
 A  Right.
 Q  Tell us what it was that you saw on occasions when you were in the log house.
 A  .30.30.
 Q  When you refer to .30.3O, would you explain to me and to the jury what it is that you're referring to.
 A  Well, it's a rifle. There is a lever on the bottom that you move back and forth. You cock it.
{1413}
 Q  Now is this description you're now giving something that you saw and you observed and you know from your having seen it or something that somebody has told you?
 A  What?
 Q  I'm simply asking you whether or not an FBI agent or myself has told you that some gun that you saw at that time was a .30.30.
 A  No.
 Q  IT's because --
 A  Yeah.
 Q  -- you yourself have that knowledge, is that right?
 A  Right.
 Q  And you had it back at that time?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Did you see any other weapons in the log house?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Would you tell the jury what other weapons as you knew them and you observed them and not what somebody else may or may not have told you. What other weapons did you see in the log house during the time that you were there?
 A  There was one that looked like an M-16.
 Q  Now you say it was one that looked like an M-16. Did I ever tell you that a weapon of any kind looked like an M-16?
 A  No.
 Q  Tell the jury how it is that you are saying to them in {1414} response to my question that a weapon you saw in the log house while you were there looked like an M-16. Where did you first hear of an M-16?
 A  Radio. You know, news, pictures.
 Q  So that when you use the word "M-16," this is something that you knew back at the time you saw the weapon, is that right, from news or TV or whatever it is?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And it isn't because anybody from the FBI or the United States attorney it was an M-16?
 A  No.
 Q  Now do you know whether or not it was an M-16?
 A  No.
 Q  Would you explain to the jury specifically what the object, the weapon looked like. Describe it to the jury for them, if you can. What color was it, for example?
 A  Dark color.
 Q  And do you remember anything else about it?
 A  Had a handle on the top.
 Q  Do you remember anything else about it?
 A  Clip on the bottom.
 Q  Do you remember anything else about it?
 A  That's all.
 Q  Did you see that weapon or a weapon of that kind on more than one occasion while you were there at Jumping {1415} Bull's? Did you see it more than just the time in the log house?
 A  Yeah. I saw it at that time.
 Q  Who did you ever see with that weapon?
 A  You mean who did I see? Leonard.
 Q  With Leonard?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  I'm going to show you now what has been marked as Government's Exhibit 34AA and ask you, Norman, whether or not the weapon that you have just been describing is the one which is of a general type and looks and description of the kind that you just told the jury. Was the weapon that you have been describing to the jury one that looked like this?
 A  Yeah. Right.
 Q  So that I might be very clear and not mislead you or in any way --
 A  Yeah.
 Q  -- ask you something that you don't understand, you understand and know the difference between, do you not, something that a weapon that looks like one different from one you know exactly is the one, is that right? Do you understand there is a difference between that?
 A  I don't understand you.
 Q  All right.
 You don't know whether or not this weapon here is the {1416} one that you saw up there at all, isn't that right?
 A  Right.
 Q  It's just one that looked like it?
 A  Yeah. It looked like it.
 Q  Did you see any other guns in the log house?
 A  No. I don't think so.
 Q  Did you see any other guns in any of the other houses during this time, short time that you lived there in June?
 A  No. Not in any of the houses.
 Q  Did you see any guns in the tent area?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Would you explain to the jury what guns you saw in the tent area during the time that you lived there.
 A  Well, I saw three rifles inside the tent where we kept our food and, you know, stuff like that.
 Q  And would you explain to the jury, let's take them just one at a time and I want to ask you want it is you remember about each one of them in terms of telling the jury to the best of your remembrance what they looked like.
 A  It's a rifle.
 Q  What do you remember about a rifle?
 A  Bolt action.
 Q  It was a bolt action?
 A  Right.
 Q  Do you know the caliber of weapon?
{1417}
 A  No.
 Q  Do you know the difference between a .30.30 and a .22 for example?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Did you know at that time the difference between a .22 and a .30.30?
 A  You mean did I know if that was one or not?
 Q  Yes.
 A  I don't know. I just saw it. No. I don't think so, you know. If I saw it I'd know what it was.
 Q  But you don't recall now specifically what it was?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  But it was a rifle, is that right?
 A  Right.
 Q  Now what was the second weapon that you recall having seen there in one of the tents? The food tent I believe, as you described ft, right?
 A  Yeah. Another rifle.
 Q  And would you describe to the jury what that rifle looked like.
 A  Well, it was the same as the other one. Bolt action.
 Q  Now would you describe to the jury what bolt action means. Is this something you're describing you knew at that time?
 A  Right.
{1418}
 Q  Tell us what it is you mean by bolt action, that you remember a weapon that was bolt action.
 A  Well, it moved from the side like this, you know (indicating). I don't know how to explain it, you know.
 Q  Well, is it one that you have to pull the bolts back?
 A  Yeah. Pull it back; yeah.
 Q  In order to fire it again, is that right?
 A  Yeah. That's right.
 Q  So there was a bolt action rifle there?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  That's the second one?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  What was the third one that you recall?
 A  It was like the other two.
 Q  It was like the other two?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Do you remember seeing any other weapons of any kind until the day of the 26th in the tent area?
 A  No.
 Q  Do you remember having any training or any sessions with people that showed you how to use a weapon of any kind while you were there in the tent area at Jumping Bull's?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Would you explain to the jury who was there at that time.
 A  Me and Norman Charles.
{1419}
 Q  Did you ever while you were there fire the black weapon that I showed you a little while ago that you referred to as looking like an M-16?
 A  No.
 Q  I want to take you now to the evening of the, afternoon or evening of the 25th of June. Do you remember that day what you were doing, what you did that day or that evening?
 A  That night; yeah.
 Q  Yes.
 A  Pulled security that night. June 26.
 Q  And did you talk to anybody before you pulled security?
 A  Yeah. It was Wish. I think it was Wish. Wish or Mike. One of them.
 Q  Do you remember any event of any kind during that period of time?
 A  I think it was Wish, he told me that, it was Mike, it was one of them. He told me that, it was either Wish or Mike, that they were hitchhiking to Oglala and he got picked up by FBI and took him to Pine Ridge. They questioned him and they said somehow a clip being taken away from Norman Charles and that's what he told me. And then they brought him back.
 Q  Do you remember talking to Norman at all that evening?
 A  Yeah. I think so. Yeah.
 Q  Did he indicate anything or do you recall anything about a possible conversation that you might have had with Norman {1420} that night about the events that you're talking about?
 A  Yeah. He told me that he took the clip from him. The clip (indicating).
 Q  Did he indicate what kind of a clip it was? I notice you're forming your hands. Was that as you remember what the clip looked like?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Would you indicate to the jury the general shape of the clip that you remember being talked about at that time?
 A  About this big (indicating).
 Q  Now you didn't see the clip at that time, is that right?
 A  Right.
 Q  That's as you best recalled the discussion concerning it, is that right?
 A  Right.
 Q  You pulled security that night you said. Were you on security all night?
 A  Yeah. From about 8:00 to 10:00. It was, I think it was mostly the night, most of the night.
 Q  And would you tell the jury what specifically you did that night during the time that you pulled security? Tell us where you went and what you did.
 A  Well, like just walked around camp and looked, you know. Just walked around and see how everything was because, reason why we had security was because we were afraid of the goons.
{1421}
 Q  Had you ever seen a goon?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  When did you see a goon?
 A  We passed one and saw two cars and they were inside the cars, two cars and the goons.
 Q  Is that the only time you saw a goon?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Did you ever see a goon down at Jumping Bull's property at all?
 A  No. You mean before June 26th?
 Q  Yes. That's what I'm referring to.
 A  No.
 Q  At the times that you were at, who was it that lived in the green house, the first house that you referred to as the green house? Do you remember who lived there during hat period of time?
 A  Ivis and Angie Long Visitor.
 Q  Were you in and out of there, that house, during the time that you were there in June?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Did you ever see any goons at any time when you were there?
 A  No.
 Q  Were you in and out of Jumping Bull's house while you were there?
 A  Yeah. Just, sometimes. Take the water, chop wood for him.
{1422}
 Q  Did other people come and go at times that you saw at the Jumping Bull's?
 A  Yeah. Some people came, some left.
 Q  Did you ever see any goons at Jumping Bull's?
 A  No.
 Q  From what you've already testified you had been in the log house on occasions, is that right?
 A  Yeah. Log house.
 Q  Did you ever see any goons when you were at the log house?
 A  No.
 Q  When you were over at, I don't recall the name of the gentleman that you referred to over at this residence. What was his name again you referred to?
 A  Dusty.
 Q  Dusty. At the times you were over at the house where Dusty lived, did you ever see any goons over there?
 A  No.
 Q  So is it fair for me, did you ever see any goons down in the tent area?
 A  No.
 Q  Is it fair for me to conclude, Norman, that you never saw up to the 26th, that's the time you said to me a minute ago, any goons at all in the Jumping Bull property area?
 A  No.
 Q  And the only time you saw a goon was this one time you {1423} a goon was this one time you referred to?
 A  Yeah. Goons.
 Q  Now what did you do in the morning when you got up in the morning on the 26th of June, 1975?
 A  I got up and Jim was up and Jean and Lynn were up and Jimmy was there, too. The girls, Jean and Lynn were cooking. Ready to have, I think it was lunch or breakfast. I don't know what time it was.
 Q  Would you tell the jury so that they might know, how many girls or women were in the camp?
 A  There was three.
 Q  There were three. And would you for the jury's sake tell the jury again who those three were.
 A  Lynn and Neelock and Jean.
{1424}
 Q  All right. Would you tell the jury approximately how old Lynn was?
 A  About seventeen, eighteen.
 Q  And how old approximately was Neelock?
 A  About twenty.
 Q  About twenty. And who was the third?
 A  Jean?
 Q  Well, you said Lynn, you said Neelock.
 A  And Jean.
 Q  And Jean, and how old was Jean about?
 A  I guess about fifteen, sixteen. Fifteen or sixteen.
 Q  Fifteen or sixteen. All right.
 Those were the three women or girls that lived in the tent area and they were there that morning?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Those are the three you were referring to; is that right?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Was Leonard there that morning?
 A  No.
 Q  Did you see Leonard that morning in the tent area at any time?
 A  No. Not when I got up, no.
 Q  Again, I am going to ask you, did you see Leonard in the tent area at any time that morning, in the morning now I'm talking about?
{1425}
 A  You mean -- I can't remember. I think -- I don't know. I can't remember.
 Q  All right.
 A  I might have, I might have seen him, but I can't remember.
 Q  All right. Your best and most honest, that you can't remember; is that right?
 A  No, I can't.
 Q  You do remember other people specifically, though?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. And he didn't live in the tent area, did he, as you said before. He lived up in the log house?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. Did you see any of the fellows there at any time that morning? Do you remember when you first got up who the fellows were if any that you saw there?
 A  Just Joe and Jimmy.
 Q  And by "Joe," you are referring to Joe Stuntz?
 A  Right.
 Q  And Jimmy, Little Jimmy as you referred to?
 A  Yeah, Little Jimmy.
 Q  Now, I'm going to, was there any, did you do anything different that morning from what you had done any other morning? Anything unusual or different?
 A  We just, just like regular mornings. Like we just got up like we do every day.
{1426}
 Q  A11 right. Now, at a time during that day sometime did you hear some firing of some kind?
 A  Yeah. I got up and Jean and Lynn were cooking and I was talking to Joe for a while on top of that green car, on the hood sitting there talking.
 And we heard some shots, about eighteen, eighteen, about twenty shots. And Joe said, "Let's go see, let's go see where the shooting is coming from." So we ran up to a little hill, and it was coming in the direction of the houses.
 So he said, "Let's go run back and get the guns," he said. So we were running back and then he said, "There's a gun in the car there, that green car." So I picked it up. Then I went there. I told Dino. Dino come running out and we told him that there was shooting up there. And Bob came. Then we met right outside of camp. Then we told the sisters, we told them, you know, don't you run out of here because there's shooting going on.
 At that time then we all started running up together. Then we split up, me and Joe went up to that housing and, you know, Bob went around this way (indicating), toward where that road is. That's what we done.
 Q  All right. Now would you take the pointer and point out to me, or would you tell the jury first where it was that you heard the shooting, where was it that you heard the shooting?
 A  Right over here (indicating).
{1427}
 Q  All right. In the general area you are making a circle of some kind; is that right?
 A  Yeah. Where the shooting was coming from.
 Q  All right. Now, you didn't see the shooting; is that right, at that time?
 A  No.
 Q  You heard shooting?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. And you say you thought it was about twenty shots, is that --
 A  Yeah.
 Q  -- a fair characterization?
 A  Right.
 Q  Would you describe to the jury what the shooting sounded like since you couldn't see it, from the first shot that you heard through the approximately twenty? Would you describe to the jury what it sounded like to you or how it happened, the twenty shots approximately? Would you describe to them what it was you heard.
 A  I didn't hear just twenty shots like that.
 Q  That's why I want you to explain how you did hear them, Norman.
 A  Well, I don't know. Just shooting, just -- I heard about five go at one time.
 Q  You heard about five at the first; is that right?
{1428}
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And would you tell us, tell the jury what it sounded like, those five.
 A  Not the first, but I heard it, I heard those five shots. I heard, first there was a shot, then a couple shots, and the five shots. Then a couple shots again, and then shots, and just taking turns like shooting. Just, just one right after another shots.
 Q  All right. And when you stated then that you separated, and I understand that you indicated that two of you at some point went one direction and two went another direction; is that right?
 A  (No response.)
 Q  Would you show me first of all, and show the jury where it was that you first went when you heard the first shots. You said that you left the tent area and you went somewhere. Would you start at the tent area and kind of draw where it was that you went.
 A  Right over here to this place (indicating).
 Q  And when you are marking that area, let me mark it with a pen so that we will, although I'm not quite that tall, so that's going to be a little bit impossible for me, would you point it out again.
 A  (Indicating.)
 Q  Would it be approximately in the area of the word "Plateau" {1429} that --
 A  Yeah.
 Q  This word right here (indicating)? It would be in that general area; is that right?
 A  Right.
 Q  All right.
 MR. HULTMAN:  Let the record show that the witness was pointing out an area where there is the word "Plateau" and it's the only word "Plateau" in the upper right-hand corner, or right-hand quarter of Governments Exhibit No. 71.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Now, is that spot out in the open, or is that in the trees?
 A  It's in the open.
 Q  It's out in the open. As you look at Government's Exhibit 71, Norman, are the areas that show no little vegetation or little circles, is that basically an open area where there is no trees or bushes of any sights to where you can see literally everything?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. Now, was that an area where you could see generally most of the area where there are no bushes on this map here?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Now, tell us when you got there what did you do, and what did you see if anything when you got up to the point where you {1430} said you ran up to in the general area of the word "Plateau". Can you see good from there?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  What could you see from there?
 A  You mean me see from here (indicating)?
 Q  No. When you ran up to the plateau, right.
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Did you have any gun with you at that time?
 A  No. Ran through here, then they were shooting us from --
 Q  And where did you gather the shooting was coming from then?
 A  From around -- the sound was coming from here (indicating).
 Q  But did you see any specific shooting?
 A  No.
 Q  Still did not see any?
 A  No.
 Q  Did you observe any people at that very time?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. So what did you then do next?
 A  We ran back. Joe told me to get a gun inside of the green ar.
 Q  All right. So you testified earlier there were guns in he tent, in the supply tent, or the food tent; is that right?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Now, at this time the guns, or at least some guns are not {1431} in the tent, they're in a car, a green car; is that right?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Now, had you ever seen that green car before?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And where did you first see it, remember seeing that green car?
 A  Farmington.
 Q  Is that one of the cars you came back in?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Do you know who the green car belonged to at this time? The time we're now talking about?
 A  No. Just some people just drove it, you know.
 Q  All right. Did you ever, who do you remember seeing driving it?
 A  The green car?
 Q  Yes.
 A  I don't think anybody, because I mean --
 MR. TAIKEFF:  Your Honor, because the witness is turned, we can't hear. Could the microphone be put near him.
 I don't mind that he's turned, but I'd like to hear the answer.
 MR. HULTMAN:  I don't think he's given an answer yet, Counsel.
 A  I can't remember.
 MR. HULTMAN:  The answer is he can't remember.
{1432}
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Did you in fact at that time then pursuant to what you did at that time secure a weapon of some kind?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  And where did you get it?
 A  From that green car there.
 Q  All right. And would you describe to the jury where was the green car in relationship to the tents.
 A  It was right there (indicating).
 Q  All right. About where there is an object at the present time; is that right?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  An object that indicates green car; is that right?
 A  Right.
 Q  And have you ever seen this map here with any of these objects in front of it before in the courtroom here today?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Did you see one that was similar at sometime in the past?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Have you seen one in the last seven, eight -- six, seven, eight months at all?
 A  Yeah. It was Cedar Rapids.
 Q  You haven't seen any since then; is that right?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. Now was there any other weapons in the green {1433} car?
 A  No.
 Q  And would you describe to the jury the weapon that you got from the green car.
 A  It was a 22.
 Q  Well, now did you know at that time that it was a 22?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Then it is not something that somebody told you since, or put any words in your mouth or anything?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. So is it fair for me to conclude, Norman, that at the time we're talking about that you had a general knowledge of weapons of one kind or another?
 A  Yeah. Just kind of like most everybody has.
 Q  All right. Now, would you describe that 22 as you've called it to the jury. Tell them what you remember about it.
 A  It was bolt action. It was a single shot.
 Q  And had you ever seen it before?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. Do you remember anything else about that particular gun on that particular day by way of anything other than it being a 22? Do you remember anything about the weapon that you would remember?
 A  You mean the one I took?
 Q  Yes.
{1434}
 A  It was a single shot.
 Q  Single shot. Do you remember anything else about that --
 A  Yeah. It had little rounds.
 Q  Litie what?
 A  Rounds.
 Q  Little rounds?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  It fired small rounds?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. Do you remember anything else about that particular weapon, anything that you would remember that weapon by as being different from some other 22?
 A  You mean --
 Q  Well, was there anything about any of the parts of it that you would remember?
 A  Yeah. It was a single shot.
 Q  It was a single shot, all right.
 Anything else that you remember?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. Now, I'm going to -- the FBI or nobody told you those at any time, those are things you remember, right?
 A  Right.
 Q  Those are the things that you are talking about are the things that you remember from that day, all right.
 I'm going to show you what has been marked as Govern- {1435}ment Exhibit 41-A, and I want to ask you whether or not in looking at 41-A is there anything about this weapon, does it generally resemble the weapon that you are talking about?
 A  Yeah. I think that's the one.
 Q  You think that it's the one?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. Now, in saying that you think it's the one, that doesn't mean that you know exactly this is the one; is that right? Is that fair for me to conclude?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. Now, what is it that makes you think that it's the one?
 A  Well --
 Q  And I'll let you look at it. I don't mean in any way to be -- it's inoperative.
 A  Yeah. I think it was this thing here on that (indicating). I think that's the one.
 MR. HULTMAN:  Let the record show that the witness pointed out some carving that is very unique and distinct as a part of the stock of this particular weapon in looking at it.
Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Did I ever at any time before right this very second ever show you or indicate to you that there was anything in particular about this weapon that was unique or unusual?
 A  What?
{1436}
 Q  Have I ever, have you ever pointed this out to me before?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. And the FBI hasn't told you it was there, and to point it out, have they?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. It's because you remember; is that right?
 A  Right.
 Q  All right. Anything else about this weapon that looks, make it such that you think maybe you had seen it before, or like the one on the time you are talking about?
 A  Well, I think it was that scope there (indicating).
 Q  All right. It did have a scope on the one that you had?
 A  I think that's the one, yeah.
 Q  All right. And it is a bolt action type of the kind that you described, is it not?
 A  Yeah. That's right.
 Q  All right. Now, what is it then that -- did you get any ammunition?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Where did you get the ammunition?
 A  From the car. It was, it was in the socks. I don't know how many rounds in there. It was about half full. I can't remember where I got it, but it was inside a sock, boots there.
 Q  All right. Now, I believe you then said that somewhere you saw Dino and Bob. When was it that you first saw Dino and {1437} Bob after the shooting, or with relationship to the shooting, when was it that you first saw Dino and Bob?
 A  Well, I told them that, I told Dino that there was shots coming from around the house. And he got up.
 Then as we got my gun, then he met up with us. I think he was with Bob. Yeah, Bob. Bob was -- we met up with them, though.
 Q  You know you met up with them?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Do you remember where it was that you met up with Dino and Bob insofar as a place?
 A  Right here (indicating).
 Q  All right.
 MR. HULTMAN:  And let the record show that the witness is pointing out an area just below the words "SA Williams' car," which is along the small road.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Did they have any weapons at that time?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  All right. Let's start with Dino, and that's Dino Butler; is that right?
 A  Right.
 Q  Now, would you describe for the jury the weapon that Dino Butler had.
 A  It was a big rifle. Had a big stock. It was just big.
 It was long, it was long. About this long (indicating). {1438} And it had -- it was just a big rifle.
 Q  All right. And was there anything else descriptive about it that you remember that was different from other rifles?
 A  There was a clip on there.
 Q  And where was the clip, what with relationship? Does it come from the top or from the bottom?
 A  I think it was from the top.
 Q  All right. Do you remember about the size or the length of the clip?
 A  I don't know. I think it was about five rounds, ten rounds.
 Q  All right. Now, do you remember what kind of a weapon that Bob had at that time?
 A  It was a -- I don't know what kind of a gun it was, but --
 Q  I want you to describe. You didn't know what kind of a gun. Would you please describe it to the jury.
 A  Well, it had a long clip, and it had a handlebar trigger.
 Q  When you say "long clip," you mean that one -- would you show about how long it is to the jury.
 A  About this long (indicating).
 Q  All right. And is that the way that it goes to the weapon, the way you are now describing it?
 A  Yeah, it goes in like this (indicating).
 Q  What kind of shells does it fire, the shape or the size of them?
{1439}
 A  I think it was a 45 or 44.
 Q  Now, is that something that you knew at that time, or is that something that somebody has told you since then?
 A  Yeah, since then.
 Q  All right. Would you describe the size of the, of those shells, compared, for example, to a 30 caliber. Do you know what the size of a 30 caliber shell generally is?
 A  Yeah. About this big (indicating).
 Q  All right. How in size, in either length or in fatness or thickness?
 A  It was pretty fat and it was small.
 Q  All right. Now, where did you, where did you go from there?
 A  After I met up with them?
 Q  Yes.
 A  Okay. We met up with them. We started, me and Joe ran up here, and Bob and Dino went on this trail here (indicating).
 Q  All right. And where was the last point that you saw Bob and Dino? Would you point out on the exhibit where it was the last spot that you saw Bob and Dino?
 A  About right here (indicating).
 Q  All right.
 A  Along this road (indicating).
 Q  All right. Along the road?
 A  Yes.
{1440}
 Q  Now, you drew a line along the road. Would you show the jury where it was you recall you, they left you, or you parted, and how far down that road did you see them?
 A  It was about, I saw them about right around here somewhere (indicating).
 Q  And where was the last spot that you saw them, to the best of your recollection? Where were they, Bob and Dino, at the time you last saw them?
 A  It was on this road here (indicating). And I last saw them when I split up.
 Q  You split up?
 A  Me and Joe were up here, and Bob and Dino went on this road here (indicating).
 Q  Did you see them after you split up along the road at any place?
 A  Yeah. It was, I think it was down here somewhere, down this area here (indicating).
 Q  All right.
 MR. HULTMAN:  Let the record show that the witness encircled an area that includes at the left edge the letter "P" as it now exists on the map and included the road and the edge of the woods itself.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Now, where did you go then? You say you split back there, and then you went someplace. Would you show the direction that you went.
{1441}
 A  Towards the housing right here (indicating).
 Q  All right. Did you run across ground then? You didn't follow any road; is that right?
 A  No. We just ran across on top.
 Q  You ran across on top.
 And was there firing going on at this time?
 A  Right.
 Q  Was there firing going on all the time that you were running from the tent area with the weapon that you are now describing?
 A  Just off and on.
 Q  Off and on?
 A  Right.
 Q  All right. And would you describe the nature of the firing that you heard off and on. Did you hear a few rounds, or many rounds or approximately how many rounds?
 A  Yeah. I heard a few rounds then off and on. I heard one time about eight rounds go off once.
 Q  Eight rounds go off all at once; is that right?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Well, does that mean they were very close together when you say "go off at once"?
 A  I think it was eight. There was, it was pretty fast. Yeah, it was fast.
 Q  All right. That's while you are running up here; is that right?
{1442}
 A  Yeah. About right here (indicating).
 Q  All right. Now, where specifically did you go with reference to the area, the Jumping Bull area? Would you point out on the map the spot, or the general area to which you went.
 A  I think it was that -- I think it was that white house and --
 Q  When you say "the white house" you mean the Jumping Bull house?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  Okay. You think you went to the white house!?
 A  (No response.)
 Q  Or if you didn't, I mean you think about it for a minute.
 A  No. It was, I think it was that shed there.
 Q  All right. Would you point out the shed. Is that the one between the green house and the white house?
 A  Yeah.
 Q  There is a shed there, all right.
 Now, was there anybody else there at that time when you got there?
 A  Well, when I was, when I was running across, Angie and Ivis were carrying two little kids. I think it was two or three little kids. They were running over towards that crest there (indicating).
 Q  All right. As you came up to this area then, there was, would you describe again who it was and where they were going?
{1443}
 A  It was Angie and Ivis Long Visitor.
 Q  All right. And are they the people that live in the green house?
 A  Yeah. And well, well, when we split up we started running about right here (indicating), then we saw them. We passed them.
 Q  You passed them; is that right?
 A  Yeah. Not real close, but we just passed them.
 Q  And do you know where they were going or what general direction?
 A  Yeah. They were, I guess they were running up opposite from where they were coming from.
 Q  With relationship to the highway, or tent city, do you where the general direction they were going?
 A  About towards where this line is, like that direction (indicating).
 Q  All right. Would that be along sort of the crest of the plateau, the high ground; is that right?
 A  Right.
 MR. TAIKEFF:  May I ask, Your Honor, for Mr. Hultman to state approximately the point where they seem to have passed each other. That was not put into the record.
 MR. HULTMAN:  I don't know, but I'll ask the question, Counsel, for clarification.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Would you point out approximately where {1444} it was as you best can recall that you saw the Long Visitors. You said in response that they weren't, you didn't pass them very close, but you were going the opposite direction. Would you point out approximately where it was that you saw them. Where were they when you saw them?
 A  About right here somewhere (indicating).
 Q  All right.
 MR. HULTMAN:  Let the record show that it's in the general area on the plateau.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Now, who was at, if anybody, who did you see when you got to the shed between the white house and the green house?
 A  It was Mike and Norman.
 Q  Mike and Norman; is that right?
 A  Right.
 Q  Would you tell the full names to the jury again.
 A  Mike Anderson.
 Q  Mike Anderson.
 A  And Norman Charles.
 Q  And Norman Charles.
 Now, where was Mike Anderson when you first saw him?
 A  He was by, I think he was by that white house there, the Jumping Bull house.
 Q  All right. By Jumping Bull's house, all right.
 And where was the other young man that you referred to?
{1445}
 A  They were both around that white house there.
 Q  Both around the white house, all right.
 Now, did you see anything in the general area other than those two people? Did you see anybody else?
 A  Yeah. Me and Joe ran up here (indicating). We were by that green house, that shed there. There was Mike and Norman. Then I looked down around here and I saw Leonard there.
 Q  All right. Now, you saw Leonard. Would you come to the map, and so that the jury can see where it is now at this time that you saw Leonard. Would you point that out specifically where you saw Leonard.
 A  (Indicating.)
 Q  All right. Let me draw a circle as you did and you tell me if it's any different. It's in that general area that you saw Leonard, is that a fair representation?
 A  Yeah. It's about right I guess.
 Q  Well, if it isn't -- is this the general area where you saw him?
 A  The general area.
 Q  All right. If it's any different I want you to make sure what it is.
 A  No, it's right, it's right.
 Q  You go ahead and put it on the map the way it was, not the way I maybe drew a circle because you were there and I wasn't.
 A  What do you mean?
{1446}
 Q  Well, where was the general area that you pointed out where you remember seeing Leonard at this point?
 A  Right here (indicating.)
 Q  All right. You drew the circle a little larger. Would you draw it so it's clear on the map.
 A  (Indicating.)
 Q  All right.
 MR. HULTMAN:  Let the record show that the line, that circle area that has a number of black marks, and I'm going to designate that circle area with the letter "L".
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Now, what was he doing at that time?
 A  Well, he was, he was laying down and he'd get up and shoot, and then he'd lay back down and get up and shoot, and lay back down.
 Q  Now, what kind of weapon did he have at that time that you observed him?
 A  It was like the one -- looked like an M16.
 Q  It's like the one I showed you; is that right?
 A  Right.
 Q  All right.
 THE COURT:  Mr. Hultman, we have reached the time when the Court is set for recess. Court will recess until 9:00 o'clock tomorrow morning.
 (Whereupon, the court adjourned at 4:30 o'clock P.M. on March 24, 1977 until 9:00 o'clock A.M. on March 25, 1977.)