US vs LEONARD PELTIER TRIAL TRANSCRIPT EXCERPTS Case Number CR77-3003

MR. HULTMAN:  Government calls Michael Anderson.
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 MICHAEL ERWIN ANDERSON,
being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
 DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HULTMAN:
 Q  Would you state to the jury your name?
 A  Michael Erwin Anderson.
 Q  Where do you live, Mr. Anderson?
 A  Fort Defiance, Arizona.
 Q  And how long nave you lived there?
 A  All my life.
 Q  And what is your birthday, Mike?
 A  9-19-58.
 Q  1958? So how old are you are the present time?
 A  18.
 Q  How old would you have been in June of 1975?
 A  16.
 Q  All right, and who do you live with there?
 A  Where?
 Q  Where your present home is.
 A  My mom.
 Q  And where did you indicate that was located?
 A  In Fort Defiance, Arizona.
 Q  All right. Now, I want to ask you some questions beginning, Mike, with the year, 1975, and with reference to an event in New Mexico.
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 Did you have an occasion in May or June of that year to go from Fort Defiance to somewhere in New Mexico?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And where did you go?
 A  Farmington.
 Q  And why did you go to Farmington?
 A  I went to the AIM convention.
 Q  All right, and did you meet some people there at the convention?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And did you stay there at the convention?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And would you tell the jury who it was that you stayed with while you were there at the convention?
 A  I stayed there with Peltier, and I don't know -- there was a lot of people, all kinds.
 Q  Do you remember any others that you can recall at this part particular time?
 A  See, there was Butler and Robideau, and Arline Nichols and Bernie, Bernadine Nichols.
 MR. TAIKEFF:  We are not able to hear.
 THE COURT:  Would you turn the microphone towards you and then try to speak fairly close to it? Speak up to, please.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) were there any others that come to mind {754} at this time?
 A  Nilak, and I think that was all.
 Q  All right. When you referred to Peltier, do you see him here in the courtroom today?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And what is his first name?
 A  Leonard.
 Q  And would you point him out to the jury, please?
 A  Over there (indicating).
 MR. TAIKEFF:  The identification is conceded, your Honor.
 MR. HULTMAN:  Let the record show.
 THE COURT:  Very well.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Now, did you have occasion then to leave Farmington and go somewhere early, either late in May or the early part of June?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And where did you go?
 A  South Dakota,
 Q  And where in South Dakota did you first go?
 A  Leonard Crow Dog.
 Q  Did you leave Farmington to go to Leonard Crow Dog's with some other people?
 Q  And who was it that you left with and in whose car?
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 A  Leonard Peltier's green pickup, camper on it.
 Q  And was Leonard with you?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And who else left with you?
 A  Bernie and Darlene and Dino.
 Q  And when you referred to "Dino", is his name Butler, Dino Butler?
 A  Yes.
 Q  All right.
 A  And Nilak. I can't remember the other names.
 Q  Was Bob Robideau with you?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Did he leave with you?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Did Mike Anderson leave with you?
 A  Yes.
 MR. LOWE:  He is Mike Anderson, your Honor.
 THE COURT:  I beg your pardon?
 MR. HULTMAN:  Mike, I am sorry. I referred back to who was with Mike Anderson.
 MR. LOWE:  Excuse me. If counsel would not ask leading questions, we wouldn't have that problem. I would like to object to the form of the previous question about Mr. Robideau. I ask he ask an interrogative type question and not a leading question.
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 MR. HULTMAN:  Your Honor, will the record show I think the rules of these proceedings there is one counsel handling one witness.
 MR. LOWE:  This is my witness, your Honor, Mr. Hultman can deal with me.
 THE COURT:  The leading question that was asked will be allowed. It was preliminary.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Mike, was Wilford Draper with you when you left?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Was Norman Brown with you when you left?
 A  Yes.
 MR. LOWE:  Your Honor, I am objecting to these leading questions. He is putting the words in the witness' mouth. He can ask who was there, and the witness can depend on his own recollection. The witness knows very well when he asked that question he wants an affirmative answer.
 THE COURT:  The objection is sustained.
 MR. HULTMAN:  All right, your Honor.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Do you recall any other individuals that left with you?
 A  Norman Brown and Wilford Draper.
 Q  All right, and do you remember what women there were -- you mentioned, I believe, one woman. Was there any other {757} woman besides the ones that you mentioned?
 A  Darlene and Bernadine.
 Q  All right, so that's a total of three women, is that correct?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Who is Darlene and Bernadine, do you know them by any other name or any relationship?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. Now, you went to Crow Dog's, you say, and where did you go from Crow Dog's?
 A  Pine Ridge.
 Q  And where did you go at Pine Ridge?
 A  Ted Lame.
 Q  And where did you go from Ted Lame?
 A  Jumping Bull's.
 Q  All right, and where did you go when you went to Jumping Bull's, what part of Jumping Bull's?
 A  Down the wooded area.
 Q  And who was it that was down in the wooded area with you, if there were any other people?
 A  Me, Norman Brown, Wish Draper, Leonard Peltier, Dino Butler, Rob Robideau, Jeannie Bordeau, Jeannie Zimmerman and Jean Day, Anna Mae, and that's about all.
 Q  Was Joe Stuntz at any time in the tent area?
 A  Yes.
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 Q  Was he also one of them.
 A  Yes.
 Q  All right. Now, would you turn around and look at what has been marked as Government's Exhibit 71, and you will notice at the top of that exhibit is a drawing of where it shows a highway, 18, U.S. Highway 18; and then there is some residences, and there is some plowed fields and some woods, and some objects there; and then there is an area up in the upper right-hand corner that refers to tents; and I ask you whether or not yo recognize the general area that's portrayed there?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And what is it?
 A  Tent area.
 Q  All right, what is the entire, the general area that's presented by all of 71, do you know whose property that is?
 A  Jumping Bull.
 Q  And when you referred to going to Jumping Bull, is it to that area that you went?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And when you referred to the tent area, is it the area which is located on Government's Exhibit 71 which has got some sort of wording, "Tents", is that the area you are referring to?
 MR. LOWE:  Your Honor, the leading questions have got to be stopped.
 THE COURT:  Sustained.
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 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Mr. Anderson, would you just point out to the jury where the tent area is?
 A  In that dark part right there (indicating).
 Q  All right. Now, I wish to take you to the night of June 25th, 1975, and ask you whether or not you went to town that particular afternoon or evening?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And did you go with anybody?
 A  Wish Draper and Norman Charles.
 Q  And where did you leave from?
 A  From the houses.
 Q  All right, and when you say the "houses", are you referring to the Jumping Bull area?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Were all of you, the three of you living in the tent area or in the general area at that time?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And where did you and Norman Charles and Wish Draper that particular evening?
 A  Oglala.
 Q  If you were to turn around again and look at Government's Exhibit 71 and use the pointer, would you show the jury the route that you took, how you went there, where you started, ar at least as far as the map, where you went?
 A  We went out this way (indicating).
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 Q  And then you went out to 18, is that correct?
 A  Yes.
 Q  To Highway 18. Then where did you go from Highway 18?
 A  To Oglala.
 Q  About how far away was Oglala?
 A  I don't know, about three miles.
 Q  All right. Now, what, if anything, did the three of you do in Oglala?
 A  Went there to take a shower.
 Q  All right. Did you take a shower?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And did you, after taking a shower, start to return to the Jumping Bull area?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Would you tell the jury what, if anything, happened on the way back from taking a shower?
 A  On the way back we got stopped by two FBI Agents.
 Q  All right, and do you remember about where that was that you were stopped?
 A  Well, by a store.
 Q  By a store?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Do you know what the name of that store is?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. Is it a store in the general vicinity of {761} Oglala?
 A  Yes.
 Q  All right. Now, would you tell the jury in your own words what it was that happened at that particular time, just tell us in your own words?
 A  Well, they pulled over and stopped us, and they asked us if any of us were Jimmy Eagle. We said "no". They asked us for our names so we gave them an alias.
 Q  How many agents were there at that particular time?
 A  Two.
 Q  Two, and they asked you if any of you were Jimmy Eagle, is that right?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And none of you were Jimmy Eagle, is that correct?
 A  No.
 Q  Jimmy Eagle was not one of the three there?
 A  No.
 Q  They then asked you for your names, you indicated?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Do you remember whether or not the person who asked for names did anything as far as any action at that time?
 A  No.
 Q  At the time that you gave the names, you indicated that each of you gave specific names, is that correct?
 A  Yes.
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 Q  Do you remember what the names were that you gave that you gave at that time?
 A  No.
 Q  Did you give a name at that time?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And what name did you give?
 A  I don't know, I forgot.
 Q  Pardon?
 A  I forgot.
 Q  All right. You forgot.
 Did the agent do anything at the time that you gave him the names?
 A  Yes.
 Q  What did he do?
 A  He write them down.
 MR. TAIKEFF:  I didn't hear the answer.
 THE COURT:  Repeat your answer.
 THE WITNESS:  He wrote them down.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) What did he write them down on?
 A  A piece of paper.
 Q  Do you remember how many names were given at that time?
 A  Three.
 Q  Three names, and did he write them down?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Did he ask for any other identification such as where you {763} lived or anything else?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. I am going to show you what has been marked as Government Exhibit No. 15 in this case, and I want you to look at it. Have you ever seen this before coming into the courtroom today, to the best of your knowledge; has any agent or anybody shown you this piece of paper?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. I want you to look at that piece of paper and look at the names or anything that is on it, the kind of paper that it is, and ask you whether or not your memory is refreshed in any way by looking at that Government Exhibit?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. Now, after the agent had asked you for your names and you had given names -- and I believe you said, you used the word "alias" -- is that what I heard you say --
 A  (Interrupting) Yes.
 Q  (Continuing) -- in response to my question. What do you mean by that response?
 A  Different name.
 Q  All right. You used a different name?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And did the other two of your companions also use a different name?
 A  Yes.
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 $Q  All right. So that in response to the question, you didn't indicate, any of the three of you, that one of you was Mike Anderson, one of you was Norman Charles and one of you was Wish Draper, you gave another name, is that right?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Did you possibly give an Indian name?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Now, what, if anything -- tell us in your own words what happened next.
 A  Well, they just told us to get in the car, but we just tried to walk away; and they told us to get in so we got in.
 Q  Did they at any time use any force of any kind on you?
 A  No.
 Q  And did they tell you why they wanted you to get in the car"
 A  No.
 Q  Did you discuss it with them at any time?
 A  No. We just asked them where they were going to take us, but they didn't tell us.
 Q  All right. What, if anything, then happened?
 A  They just took us into Pine Ridge.
 Q  All right, and while you were there, before you got in the car, do you recall one of the agents asking any one of the three of you to look at anything?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And would you tell the jury in your own words what {765} transpired, how that came about?
 A  Well, they asked us to look at the towels, and we looked at the towels and found -- Norman Charles found the clip.
 Q  And do you remember the general description of what the clip was?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Did it have ammunition in it?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And do you know what kind of a weapon that it fit?
 A  Yes.
 Q  All right. I am going to show you what has been marked as Government's Exhibit No. 69-A, and I just want to direct your attention to a part of Government's Exhibit 69-A; and would you tell the jury what it is, to what I am pointing at this time, if you know?
 A  The clip.
 Q  That's a clip.
 In looking at that particular clip, does it in any way resemble the clip to which you have now been testifying?
 A  Yes.
 Q  All right. So it was a clip of this kind that you were just referring to?
 A  Yes.
 Q  You don't know whether or not it was this particular clip or not?
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 A  No.
 Q  There would be no way for you to know, is that right?
 A  Yes.
 Q  But it resembles the one --
 A  (Interrupting) Yes.
 Q  All right.
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 Q  Now, who was it that had the clip?
 A  Norman Charles.
 Q  All right. And you indicated it was where, where did Norman have it?
 A  Wrapped in a towel.
 Q  All right. Now, you indicated you went where in the car with the agents?
 A  To Pine Ridge.
 Q  And where in Pine Ridge did you go?
 A  To the jail.
 Q  And what if anything did you do there?
 A  Told us to get out and go inside to the jail. And they asked the one officer at the front desk if any of us were Jimmy Eagle.
 Q  All right. So you got out of the car, you went into the jail at the desk; is that right?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Now, they didn't put you in jail, did they?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. And they asked you there, the man at the desk, whether or not any of you were Jimmy Eagle; is that correct?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And what if anything did the man at the desk indicate?
 A  No.
 Q  That none of you were Jimmy Eagle?
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 A  Yes.
 Q  So what if anything happened next?
 A  Well, there was just another officer came in and took us back towards the Jumping Bull's place.
 Q  All right. During the course of that time did any of them hassle you or give you a bad time in any way?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. And so they took you back then, one officer did, where you wanted to go; is that right?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And where then did the three of you ask to be left off?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And where was it that you did get out of the car?
 A  About little ways down the road before the turnoff to Jumping Bull's.
 Q  All right. Could you show us approximately on Government's Exhibit 71 where it was that you got out of the agent's car.
 A  About here (indicating).
 Q  All right.
 MR. HULTMAN:  Let the record show that he indicated to the left of Government 71 about where Highway 18 and roads coming off intersect. The left edge of Government's Exhibit 71.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) All right. What did you do then?
 A  We just got out and walked back.
 Q  Were the three of you still together?
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 A  Yes.
 Q  And you walked back to where, where did you go?
 A  Back to the tent.
 Q  Back to the tents?
 A  Yes.
 Q  All right. Would you show the jury on the map from the highway where you approximately got off the route that you took. Would you just start --
 A  This route right here (indicating).
 Q  All right. And would you just start and show us the route that you took from the highway, starting at the highway show us on the map approximately how you went and where you went.
 A  Well, we just followed the road down this way, came up through here and around there and went down (indicating).
 Q  All right. And went into where the tents were; is that right?
 A  Yes, sir.
 Q  How many tents approximately, would you describe to the jury how many tents were there in the area of where the tents were located.
 A  About five tents.
 Q  All right. And so you remember some of the people that stayed in specific ones?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Which tent did you stay in?
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 +A  The little orange pup tent.
 Q  Pardon?
 A  The orange pup tent. Orange pup tent; is that correct?
 A  Yes. Did you stay with somebody?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Who did you stay with?
 A  Jimmy Zimmerman.
 Q  Who else stayed in what kind of a tent in the area?
 A  Mela and Dino stayed in the teepee.
 Q  Any others that you recall?
 A  No, I can't recall the others.
 Q  All right. The others did stay there, but you don't remember which tent they stayed in, is that what you are saying?
 MR. LOWE:  Your Honor, objection to the form of the question. Whatever the word is, others is very indefinite here and it's a leading question to begin with.
 THE COURT:  Sustained.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Who did you see when the three of you got back to the tent area?
 A  Peltier.
 Q  And what if anything took place when you saw Peltier?
 A  Well, we just told him we got stopped by the FBI.
 Q  And what if anything did he do or say?
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 A  We just got yelled at.
 Q  And what did he indicate to you when he yelled at you?
 A  We were dumb to get in the car.
 Q  Did you talk to anybody other than you remember that night?
 A  To Dino.
 Q  All right. And do you remember what you talked to him about
at all?
 A  No.
 Q  All right . I want to take you now to the next morning, which is the 26th, and I want to ask you, did you leave the tent area itself that morning and go anywhere to any of the buildings in the morning?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And where did you go?
 A  To June Little's place.
 Q  And would you point out on the map where it is, if it is there, that you went, and have referred to as June Little.
 A  Right here (indicating) .
 Q  All right.
 MR. HULTMAN:  Let the record show that is the residence that has been previously referred to as June Little.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Who was there?
 A  June Little and his wife.
 Q  And do you know what her name is?
 A  Wanda Siers.
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 Q  All right. Do you recall anybody else being there that morning?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. Did you see anybody leave in any of the vehicles that morning?
 A  No.
 Q  Were there vehicles that were in the tent area that people used from time to time?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And would you tell us what those vehicles were?
 A  Black and green Ford Galaxie and a red and white van.
 Q  All right. And who was it that drove the red and white van?
 A  I don't know. I think it was Peltier.
 Q  And do you know who the red and white van belonged to?
 A  Peltier.
 Q  All right. And who was it that drove the other car, the Ford that you've referred to most of the time?
 A  I don't know.
 Q  All right. But were there any other cars other than these two that were normally down in the tent area?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. Now, I want to direct you now to tell us in your own words what happened while you were at the Wanda Siers' residence.
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 A  I was there and I went and ate breakfast there in the morning, and then they came back in the red and white van.
 Q  Who was it when you say "they"?
 A  Leonard Peltier and Joe Stuntz and Norman Charles I think it was.
 Q  All right. The three came back in the red and white van you say?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And what if anything happened following their coming back in the red and white van? Just tell us in your own words.
 A  They stopped over at Little's place and started talking; and I was sitting on top of the roof and then those two FBI agents' cars were coming. So they all hopped in the van and went down the hill.
 Q  And what if anything happened next?
 A  The FBI agents stopped over at June Little's place and asked if Jimmy Eagle was around. Then they seen the van going down the hill and they followed it.
 Q  All right. Then what if anything happened next?
 A  I don't know. I was behind the house.
 Q  All right. You were at what point as you look at the map here, would you point out to where it was that you were on top of the house.
 A  Right here (indicating).
 Q  All right. And show us the direction, tell the jury where {774} the red and white van came from and where it stopped with the three men.
 A  I don't remember which way they came in.
 Q  All right. Where did you first see it?
 A  Coming in about right here (indicating).
 Q  All right. And you indicated they stopped; is that right?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And then where did they go from there?
 A  They stopped here and went around this way and down this way (indicating).
 Q  All right. And it was at that time you say that you saw the FBI cars come; is that right?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And where did they go?
 A  They came around this way (indicating).
 Q  And did they stop?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And what if anything took place at that time?
 A  He just asked June Little if Jimmy Eagle was around.
 Q  And what if anything then happened?
 A  Well, I guess they seen the orange pickup going down that way and they followed it.
 Q  Now, when you say "orange pickup," is that the red and white van to which --
 MR. LOWE:  Objection, Your Honor. That's objectional, {775} it's an outrageously leading question and I object and ask that the jury be instructed, and counsel be admonished. He knows very well what he's doing .
 THE COURT:  The objection is sustained.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Mr. Anderson, you just saw one vehicle come down the --
 MR. LOWE:  Objection, Your Honor, that's a leading question. Again he's putting words in this witness's mouth. If he wants to put a script, let him hand him one.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Mr. Anderson, tell us what the car was --
 THE COURT:  Sustained.
 A  The orange and white and red and white van, that was going down the hill.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) And had you see that car before?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And whose car was that?
 A  Leonard Peltier's.
 Q  All right. Who was in it at this particular time?
 A  Peltier and Charles and Stuntz.
 Q  All right. Now, where did they then go?
 A  Down the hill.
 Q  And where did they go from there?
 A  They parked beside the fence.
 Q  Would you show us on the map where it was they parked.
 A  About right here (indicating).
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 Q  All right. Let me mark a "P" right here (indicating).
 All right. So would you trace for the jury the direction that the vehicle that you've been describing went starting at Wanda Siers' residence and to where it stopped. Would you trace that part for me.
 A  Right around here (indicating) through to there (indicating).
 Q  All right. What if anything did you see next?
 A  I saw everybody hop out.
 Q  And what if anything did you see next?
 A  FBI agents went down the hill.
 Q  All right. What if anything did you see next?
 A  I don't know.
 Q  Did you hear anything?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And what did you hear?
 A  Gunfire.
 Q  And would you, you indicated you heard the gunfire, but you didn't see the gunfire; is that correct?
 A  Yes.
 Q  All right. Would you explain to the jury in your words what was the sound, the nature of the sounds, or describe it that you heard.
 A  It's about four rounds going off.
 Q  And would you describe what they sounded like to you.
 A  No, I can't.
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 It's one after the other, about four of them. Four shots, one after the other.
 Q  Were they close together?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. Did you, what if anything did you do next?
 A  I just ran back around and went back down to tent city.
 Q  Now, where did you see the FBI cars before you started to run? Where were the FBI cars?
 A  Down the hill.
 Q  All right. And will you, looking at Government's Exhibit No. 71, would you indicate where it was that you last saw the FBI cars.
 A  Right down here (indicating).
 Q  All right.
 MR. HULTMAN:  Let the record show that the witness has pointed out the location as indicated by the objects on the map.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) How many FBI cars were there?
 A  Two.
 Q  All right. Did you see, or when they stopped at Wanda Siers', how many agents there were?
 A  One in each car.
 Q  One in each car, all right.
 Had you ever seen those agents before?
 A  Yes.
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 Q  When did you see them before?
 A  The night before they picked us up.
 Q  Was that the same two agents?
 A  Yes.
 Q  They picked you up the night before. That's the same two agents that had asked you about whether you knew Jimmy Eagle or where he might be; is that right?
 A  Yes.
 Q  All right. Now, you stated you then proceeded to go where?
 A  Around back down to tent.
 Q  All right. Would you again, taking the pointer, starting at the Wanda Siers' residence, and show the jury the route that you took.
 A  I ran around this way, around behind this house right here (indicating), around there and moved this way and then over this hill and down.
 Q  All right. And what if anything did you do there?
 A  I just picked up a rifle.
 Q  And what kind of a rifle, if you recall, did you pick up?
 A  22 single shot.
 Q  All right. And what if anything did you do then?
 A  I ran back up the hill.
 Q  All right. And where did you run to, can you show us where {779} on top of the hill that you ran to.
 A  Right through this way, through here, came up this way and came out right here, and here up on this hill, here and ran over here (indicating).
 Q  All right. And to which house, as you are pointing out on Exhibit 71 what house did you run to if you recall?
 A  I think it was the white house.
 Q  And do you know whose house that is, by any other name?
 A  Harry Jumping Bull's.
 Q  All right. And had you been there before?
 A  Yes.
 Q  During this time that you were there, all right.
 Now, who was there if anybody when you got back up to the white house, Harry Jumping Bull's?
 A  Charles and Brown and Stuntz.
 Q  Charles and Brown and Stuntz?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And where were they if you recall? Let's take them individually. Do you remember where Charles was?
 A  I think he was by the white house there.
 Q  All right. And where was Stuntz?
 A  By the green shack.
 Q  Would you point again with the pointer the buildings to which you are referring if you do see it represented on Government Exhibit 71.
{780}
 A  Right here (indicating).
 Q  All right.
 MR. HULTMAN:  Let the record show that is the house on the extreme right as you are viewing Exhibit 71.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Do you know who lived there?
 A  Ivis. Ivis Long Visitor.
 Q  All right. And do you know what his wife's name is?
 A  Angie.
 Q  All right. And where was the third person to whom you just mentioned?
 A  I think he was at the white house, too.
 Q  All right. And who was that?
 A  Norman Brown.
 Q  All right. Now, did each of these three individuals or any of them have weapons?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And would you describe what kind of weapons as you best recall that each of them had.
 A  Norman Brown had a 22 rifle, and I think Stuntz had that 44 Ruger, and Charles had that 308 British.
 Q  All right. Had you seen these weapons before?
 A  Yes.
 Q  All right. And where had you seen them?
 A  Down in the tent area.
 Q  Now, when you refer to Charles and the 308 Ruger, I'm going {781} to show you what's Government's Exhibit No. 69A and ask you whether or not it resembled this particular weapon?
 A  Yes.
 Q  All right. You don't know whether or not this is the exact weapon or not?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. Now, what did you then do?
 A  Started shooting.
 Q  All right. And where were you shooting?
 A  Down at the cars.
 Q  All right. Was there, did you indicate at any particular time were there any cars coming in from the highway at this time?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And would you point out on Government's Exhibit 18 where it was that these cars were coming in.
 MR. LOWE:  Referring to Government's Exhibit 71?
 MR. HULTMAN:  I'm sorry, Government's Exhibit 71. I'm sorry. Thank you, Counsel.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Would you point out to the jury where it was the cars you are referring to were coming in on that were shooting at?
 A  Right here (indicating).
 Q  All right. Now, do you remember what kind of a car it was at all?
{782}
 A  No.
 Q  Was there more than one car?
 A  No.
 Q  What if anything did that car do once you started shooting at it?
 A  Stopped and backed out of there.
 Q  All right. And where did he end up, could you still see him after he tried to back out?
 A  No.
 Q  All right. So he came in and when you started shooting at him he backed back out; is that right?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Would you show us approximately what direction he went back out again?
 A  I don't know. He just backed up, backed out like that. I don't know.
 Q  All right. Now, did you look at any time down the hill to where the agents' cars were when you last saw them before you ran to tent city and got your weapon?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And what was, what did you see the first time you looked down there when you were up on the hill firing?
 A  One guy was behind the trunk shooting a rifle, and the other one had a pistol.
 Q  All right. Now, as you looked down the hill to the two {783} agents' cars as you are looking down the hill at me at this moment, which car, was there anything about the two cars that you recall that was different, one from the other?
 A  They were parked different ways.
 Q  All right. Would you tell us how the two cars were?
 A  One was parked straight towards me and the other one was kind of sideways.
 Q  All right. And as you looked at them on which side was the one that was pointed or parked straight at you?
 A  On the right -- on the left side.
 Q  All right. And do you remember anything about that particular car?
 A  The trunk was open.
 Q  All right. So that if you looked at it, it was, you were looking straight at the front of the car; is that correct, it was pointed up the hill at you?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And trunk was open?
 A  (No response.)
 Q  Now, where was any of the two men that you observed, that you saw with relationship to that car?
 A  Behind the car.
 Q  And where with relationship to the trunk?
 A  Behind the trunk.
 Q  All right. Now, where was the other man?
{784}
 A  Behind his car.
 Q  And what kind of a weapon did he have?
 A  Pistol.
 Q  And it was the man then behind the trunk that had the other weapon; is that correct?
 A  Yes.
 Q  All right. Now, did you continue firing toward the cars that were coming into the Jumping Bull property?
 A  Yes.
 Q  All right. And where were you located at this time?
 A  By the log cabin.
 Q  All right. Now, did you have an occasion to at a later time look down to where the two men at the bottom of the hill were?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And what did you see at that particular time, the second time that you looked down the hill?
 A  One of them was hit.
 Q  Do you remember anything about the looks of the two?
 A  One had no shirt on.
 Q  One of them had no shirt on.
 You said one of them was hit. How do you know one of them was hit?
 A  I don't know. I guess the guy with the shirt off was trying to help him, bandage him up or something.{785}
 Q  Were both of the men standing at this particular time?
 A  One was.
 Q  One was. Which one was standing?
 A  I don't know.
 Q  All right. But one of them was standing and one was not standing. Could you tell the jury what kind of a position the second one was in?
{786}
 A  No.
 Q  But he was not standing?
 A  No.
 Q  Now did you have another occasion to -- I withdraw the question. I'll restate it.
 Did you stay at the very same position up on the hill by the white house all of the time you were doing the firing that you've referred to?
 A  No.
 Q  Would you tell us where you moved to?
 A  I just kept on running back and forth.
 Q  And you kept running back and forth to where?
 A  Log cabin.
 Q  So that you were running back and forth between the white house and the log cabin, is that correct?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Would you point out to the jury, if you can, on Government's Exhibit 71 where the log cabin is that you are referring to?
 A  Right here (indicating).
 MR. HULTMAN:  Let the record show that the witness has pointed out the residence that has been referred to as the log cabin.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Did you continue to fire out at the highway and at any vehicles out there?
 A  Yes.
{787}
 Q  Now during the course of the time we're talking about, did you see anybody over in the tree line alongside of the area that you're referring to?
 A  No.
 Q  Did you see Mr. Peltier at any time?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And where was it that you saw him?
 A  In the tree line.
 Q  Would you show us on the map where it was, where it was that you saw Mr. Peltier.
 A  It was over here (indicating).
 Q  And what was he doing?
 A  I don't know.
 Q  Did you see him at any other place?
 A  No.
 Q  I'm going to mark here on the map, would you point out again so I make sure I place where it is that you pointed on the map.
 A  Right here (indicating).
 Q  Where Mr. Peltier was located.
 MR. HULTMAN:  I'm going to write that as "P1," and let the record so indicate.
 Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Now when is the next time that you looked down to where the agents' cars were? What did you see at the next time you looked down to the agents' cars?
{788}
 A  Nobody.
 Q  Was anything going on at that time?
 A  No.
 Q  Did you see any individuals down at the agents' cars at any time?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And tell us who it was you saw at the agents' cars.
 A  Butler, Robideau and Peltier.
 Q  And did they have weapons with them?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Would you tell us starting with Mr. Peltier what kind of a weapon he had?
 A  AR.
 Q  And how do you know it's an AR?
 A  Because of the handle.
 Q  Had you seen that weapon before?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And where had you seen it before?
 A  Down in the tents.
 Q  Who had you seen it with in the tent area?
 A  I seen it laying around.
 Q  Now I'm going to show you here what has been marked as Government's Exhibit No. 34AA and I just want to ask you whether or not the weapon you have just been describing was a weapon like this?
{789}
 A  Yes.
 Q  And you referred that it had a handle of some kind, is that correct?
 A  Yes.
 Q  To what are you referring to?
 A  The handle there (indicating).
 Q  Handle here (indicating)?
 A  Yes.
 Q  You don't know whether or not this is the weapon he had there, is that right?
 A  Right.
 Q  But it was one like this?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Is this what you're telling the jury?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And you had seen it on other occasions there?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Now who was the second person that you saw down at the car?
 A  Butler.
 Q  And did he have a weapon?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And what kind of a weapon did he have?
 A  M1.
 Q  And had you seen an M1 before?
 A  Yes.
{790}
 Q  And where did you see an M1 before?
 A  Down at the camp.
 Q  Do you know what an M1 is?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Did you know what an M1 one was at that time?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Had you seen one before?
 A  Yes.
 Q  I'm going to show you now what has been marked as Government's Exhibit No. 29 and ask you to tell the jury what kind of a weapon this is.
 A  M1.
 Q  And was it a weapon like this that you saw Mr. Butler with, down where the two agents were?
 A  Yes.
 Q  You don't know whether or not it was this weapon, do you?
 A  I don't know.
 Q  Now you say there was a third person there. Who was the third person?
 A  Robideau.
 Q  And did he have a weapon?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Do you know what kind of a weapon it was?
 A  No.
 Q  Could you describe whether or not it was a long rifle or a {791} pistol?
 A  I don't know.
 Q  You just remember he had a weapon and that's all, is that correct?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Now did you have an occasion later to look down to the area of where the two cars and the agents were?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And what did you observe at that time down at the cars where the agents were?
 A  I don't know.
 Q  Pardon?
 A  I don't know. I didn't see.
 Q  Did you see any agents at that time?
 A  No.
 Q  What if anything did you then do?
 A  We ran back down to the camp.
 Q  Now during this period of time were you ever down where the agents' cars were?
 A  No.
 Q  You were up on the hill, is that correct?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And what was it that you were doing during the time that you were up on the hill? You indicated earlier by previous testimony that you had been firing towards Highway 18 or where {792} other cars were, is that right?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Did you do anything other than that during this time that you were on the hill?
 A  No.
 Q  Now when you left the hill and went back to the tent area, who was there as you best recall when you got back there?
 A  The girls and Jimmy and Leonard.
 Q  And what if anything took place back there?
 A  Leonard told me, "Load up the van."
 Q  And when he referred to the van, what vehicle was it that he was referring to?
 A  The red and white van.
 Q  What if anything did you do?
 A  I loaded up the van.
 Q  And do you remember what you loaded it up with?
 A  Sleeping bags, electrical equipment.
 Q  And when you referred to electrical equipment, could you describe it in any other words?
 A  Radios.
 Q  For the jury.
 Radios?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And was there some equipment with the radios themselves?
 A  Yes.
{793}
 Q  And would you describe to the jury what it was?
 A  Big steel boxes.
 Q  And do the radios go into those boxes?
 A  I don't know. I think so.
 Q  Now what if anything happened next in the tent area?
 A  Well, loaded up the van and we were going to make a run for it on out through the roadblocks.
 Q  Who indicated you were going to make a run for it?
 A  Peltier.
 Q  And what if anything happened next?
 A  Well, we decided not to do it.
 Q  Who was it that -- was everybody in favor of making a run for it?
 A  No.
 Q  Who wasn't in favor of making a run for it?
 A  I don't know. All the rest of us I guess.
 Q  Did you so indicate to Leonard that point of view?
 A  No.
 Q  Did anybody?
 A  No.
 Q  What if anything then happened?
 A  Well, we just decided to go out on foot.
 Q  And did all of you that were in the tent area then go out on foot?
 A  Yes.
{794}
 Q  Would you tell us who the people were that were there at the time we're talking about, starting first with the men.
 A  Leonard, Norman Brown, Norman Charles, Dino and Bob and myself and Jimmy Zimmerman.
 Q  Jimmy Zimmerman?
 A  Yes.
 Q  And what girls were there?
 A  Mela, Lynn and Jeannie.
 Q  Now did Jimmy Zimmerman go out with you?
 A  No.
 Q  What happened to Jimmy Zimmerman?
 A  He stayed there.
 Q  And what if anything did you then do?
 A  We walked out.
 Q  And would you tell us whether or not there were any other cars in the tent area that you saw before you left to go out?
 A  No.
 Q  As I recall your earlier testimony, you indicated that the red and white van was in this general vicinity where I marked a "P", is that correct?
 A  Yes.
 Q  Did you see it at any other place later in the day, the red and white van?
 A  Down in the camp.
 Q  And is that the same red and white van that you're referring {795} to with reference to loading it up?
 A  Yes.
 THE COURT:  The court will recess until 11:25.
 (Recess taken.)
{796}
 (Recess taken.)
 (Whereupon, the following proceedings were had out of the presence and hearing of the jury, the Defendant being present in person:) {not included in transcript}
 THE COURT:  You may bring in the jury.
 (Whereupon, at 11:26 o'clock, a.m., the jury returned to the courtroom and the following further proceedings were had in the presence and hearing of the jury:)

CONT....