PELTIER TRIAL; NORMAN BROWN

US vs LEONARD PELTIER
TRIAL TRANSCRIPT EXCERPTS
Case Number CR77-3003

PRIOR TESTIMONY NORMAN BROWN VOL 7
TESTIMONY OF NORMAN BROWN

VOLUME 22

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NORMAN BROWN,
having previously been sworn, testified as follows:
MR. TAIKEFF: May I inquire, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. TAIKEFF: May the witness be advised that that he remains under oath from his last appearance, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Mr. Brown, you are still subject to the oath that you took on your last appearance in this courtroom.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. TAIKEFF
Q Mr. Brown, when you went to Farmington to the AIM convention how old were you?
A I just turned fifteen.
Q And did you have a mother or a father living at that time?
A Two of them. You mean in Farmington or home?
Q At home. Was your mother living?
A Yeah. Both of them, yeah.
Q Both mothers.
A No. My mother and my dad.
Q Your mother and father were both living, okay.
A Yeah.
Q When you left Farmington you went back to the Pine Ridge Reservation with Mr. Peltier; is that right?
A Right.
Q Why did you not go home? Why did you go with him?
A Well, I told him that I was in Sun Dance and I asked him if {4791} he was in Sun Dance. He said, "Yeah." And I asked him if I could catch a ride there. And he said "Yeah." And I just told him where we were staying. Told him we were staying in Pine Ridge, that they had sweat lodges there and they had ceremonies and he said from there we can go to Crow Dog's Paradise.
Q And when was the Sun Dance scheduled to happen?
A July 29th through August 5th.
Q Now, were you outside the country recently? Outside the United States?
A Yeah.
Q Where were you?
A Canada.
Q When did you go there?
A Around October, November, around there.
Q And when did you come back from Canada?
A Last month.
Q Did you come back on your own?
A Yeah.
Q And where did you go?
A To Crow Dog's Paradise.
Q You have any kind of relationship with Leonard Crow Dog?
A Yeah.
Q What is that relationship?
A Like brothers and like a teacher to me. And, yeah, brothers, teacher.
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He tells me, you know, sacred things about nature and medicines and stuff like that.
Q He's a medicine man, isn't he?
A Yeah.
Q Do you know a place called Mission, South Dakota?
A Yeah.
Q When were you there last?
A March, I think it was the 23rd. I'm not sure.
Q How far is Mission, South Dakota from Leonard Crow Dog's place?
A About twenty-eight miles.
Q Generally speaking what were you doing at Leonard Crow Dog's place up to March 23rd from the time you got there until March 23rd?
A Well, went down there because he was gettin out and take some ceremonies with him and, you know, visit, too.
Q Did you have any family with him -- any of your family staying with him?
A No.
Q Do you have a wife?
A Yeah.
Q Where was she at that time?
A With me.
Q Had she been in Canada with you?
A Right.
{4793}
Q Now, what happened in Mission, South Dakota on March 23rd, as far as this case is concerned?
A Well, we went to this one store to look for saw blade for wood. We went to this one store.
Q Can you speak a little louder.
A We went to this one store and they didn't have one there so we were going down the street inside this T.V. repair shop. And we went by Abourezk store and there I saw two, two agents.
Q Go on.
A They were looking at us and in our pickup and we passed them and they were really looking at us. So I thought, you know, right there they recognized me. So we got out of the car and we walked in that T.V. repair shop and Al Running was looking for a radio. He was going to buy a radio. We went in there and I was looking and then I saw these two agents come around by the parking lot. And they pulled up and they were sittin' there for about five minutes.
So I was looking at them. So I, you know, I thought they probably know who I am and so I walked out there, me and my wife, Al Running and Diane Running. We walked out and, like I saw them come out of cars and came behind me and he said, "Mr. Brown," and I was getting inside the car and he goes, "Mr. Brown." He said that about three times and the third time he said, "Mr. Brown." And so I turned around and they said, "We got a subpoena for you for Leonard Peltier's trial in Fargo." {4794} And I told Al, I said, "Do you know these agents, do you know their names, can you get their names?" So he got them and that agent gave me a subpoena and said I had to be over there.
Q Then what happened?
A Well, he just told me to get in the car.
Q Which car, your car?
A No. FBI car.
Q And then what happened?
A I got in the car. Then we went to Pierre, South Dakota and as soon as we got to Pierre we got on a small plane. Then we came here about 4:30.
Q 4:30 in the afternoon?
A Yeah. About 4:30, yeah.
Q Okay. Now, stop at that point. I want to show you a document, I'm handing a photostatic copy of it to Mr. Hultman, show you Defendant's Exhibit 229 for identification and I ask you who gave that to me, if you know?
A To me?
Q Who gave that piece of paper to me?
A A lawyer.
Q This man over here (indicating), Mr. Maring?
A Yeah, Mr. Maring.
Q Do you recognize it?
A Yeah.
Q What is it generally?
{4795}
A A subpoena.
Q Was that the subpoena you were shown or given on March 23rd in Mission, South Dakota?
A Yeah.
Q Okay. Now, you said they brought you up here in a small plane from Pierre, South Dakota; and when you got here where did you go next after you left the airport?
A You mean from here, this airport?
Q Yes. Fargo airport, right.
A There were some agents who were waiting so they walked me to one car.
Q Can you speak up a little louder, please, so everyone can hear you.
A I walked to this car and they told me "Get in one of them." So I got in there.
They took me to this hotel or motel the other side of Fargo and they gave me a room.
Q Do you remember the name of that motel?
A No.
Q Does it begin with the letter B?
A Yeah. It's the Biltmore, yeah, motel or hotel.
Q What happened there?
A Well, I got there, they gave me something to eat, then I went to my room.
Q By the way, before you left Mission did you say anything about {4796} wanting to get something?
A Yeah. I told the agent that I wanted to have a lawyer and he told me that I'd get one.
Q Did he say where you could get one?
A No. I asked him twice, that guy, to see a lawyer. And he ways, "Yeah, you'll get one as soon as you get to Fargo."
Q All right. Now, I think you told us you were taken to the Biltmore in Fargo and you were fed and up to the time you were fed, but while you were in Fargo, did you say anything about a lawyer again?
A Yeah. Once, right after we ate. I asked, I said, "Am I going to get a lawyer?" And he said, "Yeah." So I was waiting all evening.
Q That night did anyone come to see you who said he was a lawyer?
A No. But Mr. Hultman came over to the room I was at.
Q And when Mr. Hultman came he tried to ask you questions, right?
A No. He just came up to me and he asked, he says, "I want you to tell me," you know, he says, "I'm not going to ask you any questions. I want you to tell me about, you know, June 26th again."
Q All right. Now, you told Mr. Hultman that you wanted a lawyer, right?
A Yeah.
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Q And when you told him that he left immediately, he honored your request, did he not?
A Right. As soon as I said that to him that, you know, he left.
Q Now, that left you with whom then?
A An agent.
Q Do you know the name of that agent?
A Mike Nez.
Q N-e-z?
A Yeah, N-e-z.
Q Where is he from?
A Gallup, New Mexico.
Q Did you make any phone calls from the motel room?
A Yeah.
Q Did a lawyer come to see you that night?
A No.
Q Then the next morning did you come to the courthouse?
A Yeah.
Q Did you testify for the Government?
A Yeah.
Q Now, you previously testified for the Government in connection with this case, did you not?
A Yeah. In Cedar Rapids.
Q At the trial last summer?
A Yeah.
{4798}
Q And did you testify before that?
A Yeah.
Q Where did you testify before that?
A Sioux Falls, South Dakota.
Q Was that at a trial or some other kind of proceedings?
A No. It was a grand jury.
Q Now, I want to ask you some questions that concern the events leading up to your grand jury testimony. Before you testified in the grand jury did you have any contact with any agents of the FBI?
A Yeah.
Q Do you know the name of the agent or the names of the agents if there was more than one?
A There was Victor Harvey. His first name is Olen. And there's another one, J. Gary Adams.
Q How many times in your life have you met J. Gary Adams before you went to the grand jury?
A How many times have I met him?
Q Yes. Before you went to the grand jury.
A I think it was twice, yeah.
I don't know, I think it was twice. Once -- I don't know, I can't remember.
Q Well, think about it and see if you can recall how many times.
A I can't remember. I think it was -- I don't know, I can't {4799} remember.
Q How much time would you say you spent with Gary Adams before you went to the grand jury?
A I don't know. A lot of hours, though, it seemed like.
Q Could you give us some estimate of how many hours is a "lot of hours"?
A I don't know. It seemed like about four and a half hours. I don't know. It seemed that long.
Q Did you ever have an interview with him when your mother was present?
A Yeah.
Q Where was that?
A Chinle, Arizona.
Q Is that where your mother has her home?
A No. It's Mini Farms about fifteen miles from there.
Q And who was present at that time?
A My mom, J. Gary Adams and Victor Harvey.
Q Would you tell the Court and jury what happened that day or evening.
A Well, I was at my sister's house in Chinle and tribal cop came and wanted to talk to me. And my mom went out there and talked for about a minute, minute and a half. She came in, she didn't say anything; and told me, you know, this, let's go to this one place. And I said, "Where?" "Let's go over there." So I said, "All right."
{4800}
So I went, got in our truck. Then we went to this trailer and he said, "Let's go inside." And we went in there.
Q Now, who was in there when you went in there?
A There was one BIA police. He's an officer. I think there was another one. I'm not sure.
Q How about the FBI agents?
A Well, I got there and I knew that they were going to question me about it. So I asked, you know, if I can go out. As I was going out the guy wouldn't let me out. He grabbed me.
Q He --
A He wouldn't let me go out of the trailer.
Q Did they tell you you were under arrest?
A No.
Q Who stopped you from going out?
A Arthur Newman. He's a BIA police officer.
Q Was Gary Adams there?
A No. He wouldn't let me out and he told me to wait there for about, for a while. And we waited there and he said, "Some agents are coming in, they're flying in." So we waited, we waited there, me and my mom and we were waiting. Some agents came and there was three of them came in. And the other guy, he's from Flagg Staff, and they came in. They showed us their names, their badges, and showed my mom their badges and their names. And I told my mom to get their names down, {4801} and she got them down.
Q Then what happened?
A Well, they said, they gave me a, my rights, or said something about my rights. I can't remember. They asked me if I understand them and I said, "Yeah." And they asked me, you know, where I was on June 26th, and I told them, you know, that I didn't know, you know.
I gave them a piece of paper and on that piece of paper it said that I wasn't suppose to talk to any law enforcement people or BIA, FBI or state patrol or any of them. That paper said that, and on that paper the guy, I went to Jack Schwartz, he's a lawyer and he typed that up for me and I gave that to them and they wouldn't let me call --
Q I didn't hear what you said.
A They wouldn't let me call a lawyer.
Q I see. When they read your rights to you did they tell you that you had a right to consult with a lawyer?
A Yeah.
Q And then you tried to call a lawyer and they wouldn't let you?
A Yeah.
Q Go on, tell us what else happened.
A Well, started asking me questions and I kept saying that I didn't want to talk to them. First they were nice, kind of nice. Asked me if I wanted a cigarette and coffee. Told them, {4802} no, that I wanted a lawyer. So they started getting kind of mad because I wouldn't answer their questions.
{4803}
And Victor Harvey told me, he said, "We knew you were there," and he said, "If you don't answer our questions we can indict you, we can charge you with those two murders of those two FBI agents." And I was just sitting there thinking of my mom. She knew what was happening.
Q Where was she?
A Right beside me here. I don't know. She freaked out. She knew what was happening. She kind of tapped me and I looked over there and she said, "Why don't you tell them." I said, "I don't want to tell." Ask the agent what was going on and the agent told her I was involved in the shooting with the agents and he said, "I knew you done it," like that. And they said that then "I know." Still didn't say anything.
So that guy Victor Harvey says, "We can indict you," he said, "for those two murders," and he said, "We even had a gun that you had, you know, that killed one of them." He said that to me. And my mom, she was crying. She didn't know what to think. Kept telling me to say something, talk.
So I was sitting there and I won't say anything to them. Victor Harvey got mad again and he said something else too.
Q Is it something you don't want to say in court?
A Yeah.
Q Was it a bad word?
A It wasn't a bad word, just what he said. He said, you know, {4804} "If you don't talk to us," you know, "you might never walk the earth again."
Q I see. Go ahead.
A And what I thought was, you know, put me in jail and my mom started crying. They told my mom that "You won't see your son again for a long time." "You won't see your family again." And I said something that got them mad and then he said, "We'll do everything in our power, do everything in my power that you go to jail if you don't answer our questions." And he told me that I won't see my mom for a long time. My mom told me to talk to them, to lawyers, I mean, to FBI agents.
Q Go ahead.
A She was crying and she just told me to talk.
Q Go ahead. You can continue testifying.
MR. HULTMAN: If you would ask a question he might have an opportunity to respond.
MR. TAIKEFF: The question is what happened.
A Okay.
And they said that to me, then my mom told me that she didn't want to see me in jail and told me to think of her and my brothers and sisters, my family. And I started answering their questions.
Q How did they ask their questions of you?
A They say, "We know you saw this and saw that. People tell us, somebody told us that you saw this." I said, you know, "Who {4805} told you this," and they said they couldn't tell.
Q How did you feel while this was going on?
A Well, I wasn't going to say anything but my mom, she was crying and everything and I didn't want to do --
Q You were just past 15 years of age at this time?
A Right.
Q You knew that Gary Adams and Victor Harvey were from the FBI, did you not?
A Right.
Q Do you remember the date when this took place?
A September somewhere. September 23 and the 3rd.
Q Earlier that month you had had some kind of an encounter with the FBI, isn't that correct?
A Yeah.
Q Would you tell the Court and jury about that.
A Well, it was at Crow Dog's one night. Me and my wife were staying this one place and next we woke up there was these agents running all over the place. There was a lot of them.
Q How were they dressed?
A Dressed like Viet Nam, army fatigues and those greens, you know, they were in Viet Nam. Saw some carrying M16s. Looked like that, you know. And sawed off shotguns and bulletproof vests and could hear choppers, too.
Q A what?
A Chopper.
{4806}
Q Helicopter?
A Yes.
Q Yes.
A And, you know, all around the camp. They just came in about 5:30, around there. It was pretty early.
Q How many agents did you see that day?
A I don't know. About 80. 80 to 100. Around there.
And we heard people running by and I looked out and one of them saw me and said "All right, come out with your hands up." I came out and they pulled back their guns and said, they cocked it, I guess, and I came out and said, "Anybody in there with you?" Said "Yeah." "Tell them to get out." So told my wife to come out and we came out and they told me, you know, "Get on the grass," so I laid down. They searched me and her. Then, you know, they had M16s and told us to get up and they pushed us with those M16s and said, "Why don't you go over where the women and kids are." They said that to us.
We started walking where all the women and kids were at and were standing there. There was a lot of FBI agents around, around where the women and kids were.
Q Go ahead.
A And, well, they were just all over. There were a lot of them. And kids were crying.
MR. HULTMAN: Your Honor, I haven't entered an objection up till now. I do object on the grounds of any relevancy of {4807} any kind.
MR. TAIKEFF: Foundation testimony concerning state of mind at the time of testifying before the grand jury, Your Honor.
MR. HULTMAN: This is an event six months before. Isn't that right, Counsel?
MR. TAIKEFF: That's correct, Your Honor.
MR. HULTMAN: I renew my objection.
MR. TAIKEFF: It's actually four months before I think.
MR. HULTMAN: I believe the dates are September 23rd and January 13th to be exact.
MR. TAIKEFF: Four months, Your Honor.
MR. HULTMAN: I object on the grounds of relevancy.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q (By Mr. Taikeff) When you went to the grand jury in January, did the experience you just told us about have any affect upon what you did in that grand jury room? Yes or no?
A Yes.
MR. HULTMAN: Same objection, Your Honor.
MR. TAIKEFF: I don't know whether I should ask the next question, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I know you do not. I was considering the objection.
MR. TAIKEFF: I didn't mean to interrupt Your Honor's consideration. I wasn't sure whether I should go forward.
{4808}
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q (By Mr. Taikeff) Tell the Court and jury what was the nature of the effect of that experience that you just told us about had upon you when you went into the grand jury and what you did inside that grand jury room?
A You know, there weren't, you know they meant --
Q They what?
A They meant what they did and, you know, they were for real. They meant what their word was. You know, I mean like I don't know just --
Q Explain what you meant by the statement "they were for real."
A Like, they were serious, you know. They meant it. You know they were serious, you know. They didn't, I don't know. They were serious what -- they, you know, I thought they weren't messing around. They meant what they were doing.
Q Did you consider the things they said to you when they spoke with you and your mother?
A Yeah.
Q In the grand jury you testified that you saw Leonard and Dino and Bob down by the cars, isn't that a fact?
A Right.
MR. HULTMAN: I object to any further leading questions of this kind.
MR. TAIKEFF: That's a foundation question.
{4809}
MR. HULTMAN: I understand. When they get all done it will still be foundation.
THE COURT: Objection sustained.
Q (By Mr. Taikeff) Did you ever see Leonard and Dino and Bob down by the cars on June 26th, 1975?
A No.
Q Why did you tell that to the grand jury?
A Well, they were, you know, back there when they first came, when I was telling about, they said, "We know you saw this and saw that."
Q Specifically. Be specific. They said that they claimed --
MR. HULTMAN: Just a minute, Your Honor. I object. We're about now to clearly get a leading question.
MR. TAIKEFF: I was not going to ask a leading question. I was going to put it in terms of him telling us what they said they knew he knew.
THE COURT: You may ask the question without suggesting the answer.
MR. TAIKEFF: All right. Thank you.
Q (By Mr. Taikeff) You just told us. Tell us specifically what did they say to you they had heard or knew that you knew?
MR. HULTMAN: That assumes that that was the case, Your Honor, and that's the very reason I objected to the leading.
MR. TAIKEFF: That was his very testimony before. Testified that they told him that someone told them certain {4810} things and then they repeated those things and I want him to say what those things were.
THE COURT: He may answer. You may answer that.
A They told me, they said, "We know you saw those guys down there." Said, "Who?" They said, "I don't know." They said, "We know you know." They said, "Somebody told us that you saw Bob, Dino and Leonard down there," and I didn't know what to think after, you know, my mom, I just told them I saw them down there.
Q Did the FBI ever mention to you the names of the people that they thought killed the agents when they were interviewing you the first time they interviewed you?
MR. HULTMAN: Object on the grounds of being leading.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A I don't understand your question.
MR. HULTMAN: And further on the grounds that the question has been asked and answered.
MR. TAIKEFF: It's been answered? Could I have the answer read back, Your Honor, please. I didn't seem to hear it.
MR. HULTMAN: The testimony just previously to the last question.
MR. TAIKEFF: I'd like to have the answer read back then because I apparently missed it. I must have been looking at my notes and I --
MR. HULTMAN: I have no objection to the question, Your {4811} Honor, as long as it's not leading.
THE COURT: Proceed.
Q (By Mr. Taikeff) When the agents first interviewed you, did they tell you who the murderers were?
MR. HULTMAN: Same objection.
A No. They just told us that "We know you saw those guys down there."
A I'm holding in my hands Government Exhibit 34AA in evidence. As you sit there now do you know what kind of a weapon this is?
A You mean right now?
Q Do you know now?
A Yeah. Now I know.
Q What is it?
A It's an AR15.
Q In September of 1975 did you know the name of that weapon?
A No.
Q Did you ever have any discussion with the FBI about the name of weapons?
A Yeah. I told them "That that gun there," I said --
Q I'm sorry. I didn't hear the beginning of your answer.
A "That gun."
Q Yes. What did you tell them or did they tell you. That's what I'm trying to find out.
{4812}
A They asked me, you know, "What kind of guns," you know, they had and they asked me about Leonard. Says, "It looks like an M16," and kept saying "was it M16"? I said, "I don't know." I said, "Looks like one." Kept saying, "It was one, wasn't it?" I said, "I don't know. Looks like one." Kept saying that and making me, I don't know, so many questions.
Q When you testified before the grand jury that you saw Leonard and Bob and Dino down by the agents' cars, where did you get that information from?
A FBI.
Q Did you ever see that on June 26th, 1975?
A No.
MR. TAIKEFF: Your Honor, at this time I offer Defendant's Exhibit 229 both on the testimony of this witness and because it is a copy of an official court paper in this case.
MR. HULTMAN: Well, I object, Your Honor, that it has no materiality of any kind. The same as any other subpoena in this trial.
MR. TAIKEFF: I believe it does, if Your Honor will look at it I think Your Honor will perceive it was served on the 23rd when he was illegally taken into custody.
MR. HULTMAN: If it please the Court, if we're going to discuss matters let's not discuss them before the jury. I request we approach the bench.
{4813}
THE COURT: You may.
(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the bench;)
MR. HULTMAN: About illegal matters.
MR. MARING: May I be allowed to approach the bench also?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. HULTMAN: On your record, Your Honor, I'm getting sick, very sick about illegal acts on the part of the government.
MR. TAIKEFF: Is it proper to serve somebody on the 23rd with a subpoena returnable on the 14th and take him into custody against his will? Is that not an illegal act?
MR. HULTMAN: Counsel, I'm referring to your conduct before this jury. That's the issue I'm talking about. I want it made clear on the record if you've got matters to take up out of the presence of the jury you do it. Don't do it and prejudice the jury any longer.
MR. TAIKEFF: What do you think you're doing right now by yelling? You can be heard six blocks away.
MR. SIKMA: So can you, Mr. Taikeff.
THE COURT: What's the issue before the Court?
MR. HULTMAN: I'm objecting, Your Honor, first of all, to his conduct in front of the jury. That's the first thing.
Secondly, I'm objecting and have a right to object and {4814} I did object to the entrance of this exhibit on materiality and then without a speech on the part of Counsel in front of the jury about the conduct of the government.
MR. TAIKEFF: You've got to fight fire with fire, Mr. Hultman.
MR. HULTMAN: I don't have any response.
THE COURT: What is the materiality of this exhibit?
MR. TAIKEFF: This witness was intimidated by illegally being taken into custody upon the authority of a subpoena which it was not even valid because it was served on the 23rd of March, returnable on March 14th and even if it were returnable after the 23rd -- just a moment.
I'm looking for the 23rd of March.
MR. TAIKEFF: Your Honor, he testified that it was served upon him on the 23rd and I think the government will concede that his memory is correct. It's this date which is important, although it doesn't matter what date was there, you cannot take a person into custody on a subpoena. A subpoena is not a warrant of arrest.
MR. SIKMA: That's not proof.
THE COURT Again we're getting into collateral issues whether or not he was taken into custody and I'm not going to permit that.
MR. TAIKEFF: This witness testified to the prosecution.
THE COURT: You have been permitted to bring out {4815} from him the facts as to what happened. We're not going to get into a legal determination as to whether or not he was taken into custody.
MR. TAIKEFF: He's already testified he was taken into custody.
THE COURT: Testified he accompanied the agents. Now whether that was being taken into custody or not is something this Court doesn't have to determine at this time. It's irrelevant to these proceedings.
MR. TAIKEFF: Doesn't it reflect upon his state of mind when he testified on direct examination for the government?
MR. HULTMAN: You already postulated, Counsel, he told the truth. You've said that 16 times in the courtroom at least this afternoon.
THE COURT: Objection to 229 is sustained.
MR. HULTMAN: Your Honor, could I have an instruction as to the remarks that Counsel made in front of this jury just a moment ago? I think that's highly prejudicial.
MR. TAIKEFF: When you stop signaling witnesses I won't say anything like that.
THE COURT: Counsel may proceed.
{4816}
(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had in the courtroom in the presence and hearing of the jury:)
Q (By Mr. Taikeff) On March 23 when you were brought here via Pierre, South Dakota, did you want to leave Mission, South Dakota?
A No.
Q Where was your wife then?
A She was with me.
Q Is she pregnant?
A Yeah.
Q Was she pregnant then?
A When? You mean --
Q (Interrupting) On March 23rd.
A Yeah.
Q When is the baby expected?
A July 22nd.
Q Why did you go with the agents?
A Because I always think about my wife and my boy.
Q Did they tell you that you had to go with them?
A Well, they just told me to go, and I thought, you know, I had no choice.
Q Did they show you any arrest warrant?
A No. I asked them if I was arrested.
Q What did they say?
A They said "no".
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Q Did you look at the piece of paper that you had?
A Yeah, and I asked them to read me my rights and they said I wasn't arrested.
Q He said you weren't arrested so he wouldn't read you your rights?
A Yes.
MR. TAIKEFF: I have no further questions.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
By MR. HULTMAN:
Q Norman, let us start with something that is maybe fresher in your mind than some other things.
Do you recall counsel asking you some question about you and I meeting on the night that you came here that he has just talked to you about, do you remember that night?
A Yeah.
Q Now, I am being correct and I am being honest and I am being fair, that when I met you, that without discussing anything about what took place, I asked you whether or not you had any questions that you wanted to ask me, is that a fair and truthful --
A (Interrupting) Say that again.
Q Isn't the first thing that I said to you and continually asked you when I met with you on the night that counsel is talking about, "Do you have any things that you would like to ask me?"
{4818}
A Yeah.
Q And didn't we spend the time that you and I were together, me answering the questions that you had to ask of me?
A Yeah.
Q Including when you asked whether or not you could have a lawyer?
A Right.
Q Now, did I at any time during that evening discuss with you any of the facts or what might be your testimony that you gave the next day here in the courtroom?
A I don't understand.
Q All right. Did you and I at any time that evening talk about any of the specific events that did or did not take place on the 26th of June, 1975?
A No.
Q There isn't any question in your mind about that at all, is there?
A No. You didn't ask me no questions about it, the June 26th.
Q All right. Now, did you tell me at that time that you had any idea but the fact that you were a witness that was called and would be a witness called to testify in this trial, you understood that you were to be a witness at that time in this trial, did you not?
A Yeah.
{4819}
Q And then you were a witness the next day, were you not?
A Yeah, but --
Q (Interrupting) Now, did you the next day testify to things that you saw and you observed truthfully and honestly before this jury?
A Yeah.
Q And anything that happened the night before or the day before concerning the FBI with a subpoena or whatever counsel asked you about, it didn't have any impact on what your testimony was that day here before this jury, did it?
A What do you mean?
Q You told the truth, did you not?
A Yeah.
Q And there isn't any question in your mind that as to what you said that day before this jury, that what you told them is true, is there any question at all about that?
A Yeah.
Q Did you say the things that day to the jury because the FBI had forced you at some time to say it?
A They didn't force me, but they just gave me a lot of questions.
Q I an asking you about the testimony that you gave here before this jury. Let's just talk about that for a moment, o.k.?
A You are asking me if they forced me to testify?
{4820}
Q I am asking you if there was anyone who forced you in any way to give and say what it was you said here in this courtroom before these people here when you were previously here, did anybody force you to say anything that day?
A No.
Q You did this because it was the truth, is that right?
A Yeah.
Q And there isn't any question in your mind, sitting here now, that what you told them that day is the truth, is it?
A That day I was here?
Q Yes.
A Yes.
Q All right. Now, let us go back in the beginning, all of these things counsel has asked you about, you indicated that you were at Crow Dog's Paradise, and you talked about some events that took place there.
Which of the people that were in Tent City or at Jumping Bull's on the 26th were there at Crow Dog's with you?
MR. TAIKEFF: Objection, beyond the scope of the direct and irrelevant as well.
MR. HULTMAN: Well, counsel went into the various reasons, your Honor, as to why certain events followed; and I think this is within the scope of that examination.
THE COURT: He may answer the question.
A Would you ask that again?
{4821}
Q (By Mr. Hultman) Who were the people that were at Crow Dog's with you that were with you on the 26th of June when you were at Jumping Bull's, 1975?
A Everybody that was there except Wish.
Q Was Leonard there?
A Yeah.
Q Now, let us go to the first time that anyone asked you from law enforcement about what happened or what you knew about the 26th of June, 1975; and is that the day that you talked about that happened down in Arizona?
A You mean when the FBI came?
Q Yes, that's the first time, is it not, that anybody from law enforcement --
A (Interrupting) Yeah.
Q (Continuing) -- talked to you about anything that may or may not have happened on the 26th of June?
A Yeah.
Q Now, isn't it a fact that during all the time that you told or answered questions about what took place on that day, that your mother was seated right beside you?
A You mean when they asked me questions, my ma was beside me?
Q There isn't any question about that, is there?
A No.
Q You were 15 at the time, were you not?
{4822}
A Right.
Q In fact, it was your mother that brought you there, was it not?
A Yeah.
Q You didn't come on your own?
A Well, I knew I was going.
Q You didn't want to come, in fact, did you?
A No.
Q In fact, I believe you indicated even to your mother to get those names of the FBI's, isn't that what you said on direct examination?
A Yeah.
Q Now, your mother didn't have any qualms about bringing you, did she?
A She didn't know what was happening there. She didn't know why they were there.
Q Now, isn't it a fact that after there was discussion about your rights in the presence of your mother, she had some questions to ask about it, did she not?
A What do you mean?
Q Well, didn't she ask some questions of the FBI and the BIA agent who was there at that particular time concerning rights?
A I don't know.
Q Do you remember her asking about the fact that your age {4823} was 15 and that she felt that she should be there because she was your mother and you were 15?
A Yes.
Q And do you remember the FBI asking and answering specific questions that she asked concerning what your rights were?
A Can you say that again?
Q Well, isn't it a fact that your mother asked about what rights you had at that time?
A Yeah, I guess so. I don't know.
Q And didn't the FBI explain all of the things that you know very well at this particular time it has to do with rights?
A Yeah. They told me about my rights, yeah.
Q And they told your mother too, did they not?
A Yeah, they told my mom.
Q Now, isn't it a fact, Norman, that both you and your mother, knowing that you had a right to have an attorney present and after being explained, and that you didn't have to talk to the agents in any way, and if you wanted an attorney they would get one, that you indicated that you were willing to go ahead and tell whatever it is you knew, to tell the truth?
MR. TAIKEFF: I have to object to the form of that question because it includes some consideration of his mother's state of mind on the subjects of a lawyer. He is not competent to answer.
MR. HULTMAN: I will only deal first with the witness.
{4824}
THE COURT: The objection to the form of the question is sustained. You may rephrase your question.
**MR. HULTMAN: Yes.
Q (By Mr. Hultman) Isn't it a fact that after you were explained all of those things and were asked whether or not you were willing to go ahead and tell the truth about whatever it is that you knew, that you replied "yes", that you were willing?
A No. My lawyer first -- I gave them that piece of paper.
Q And where did this piece of paper come from -- you were 15 years old, were you not?
A Yeah. Right after June 5th at Crow Dog's, I went to Rapid City.
Q Wasn't it a form letter sent out by Mr. Ellison who just -- wasn't his name on it -- that just walked out of the door, it was a form letter, was it not?
A What do you mean?
Q It was a letter which is produced in many numbers?
A No.
MR. TAIKEFF: Your Honor, I object to that as being totally irrelevant. The letter apparently is not in dispute. It existed. Who prepared it is irrelevant.
THE COURT: Sustained. Produce the letter.
Q (By Mr. Hultman) Well, wasn't it just --
A (Interrupting) It was in the letter. They gave it to me. I asked them if there was any way they could help me, and {4825} they typed it out, Jack Schwartz.
Q Well, why did you -- when and where was it that you asked for somebody to help you?
MR. TAIKEFF: Objection, irrelevant. His consultations with counsel are irrelevant to the issue on this matter. In any event, he has the right not to answer that question under the attorney-client privilege.
THE COURT: That is a right for the witness to decide.
MR. TAIKEFF: I have a right to object if he is not being fully advised of his rights at this particular time.
THE COURT: I am not sure that counsel was involved.
MR. TAIKEFF: He said Jack Schwartz as his attorney. He consulted with him. I believe he said that on direct examination.
THE COURT: I did not hear that. The objection is sustained.
Q (By Mr. Hultman) Do you remember the request that your mother made, not what was in her mind, but the specific request that your mother made after the discussion concerning what your rights were, do you remember her requesting that a certain person come, do you remember that; do you remember asking that Mr. Arthur Newmann come and join and be present?
A I don't know. I don't remember.
{4826}
Q You wouldn't dispute that?
A What do you mean?
Q You are not saying it is not the case, you don't remember?
MR. TAIKEFF: Objection on the grounds of competence. If he doesn't remember, he couldn't dispute it or agree to it.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q (By Mr. Hultman) Now, let me ask you just one simple question, Norman: Wasn't it in fact your mother all through this interview who urged you to tell the truth, and that was the reason for the statements, the answers, the story that you told at that time?
{4827}
A What do you mean? I mean, could you restate that so I can understand the question?
Q Wasn't it your mother's urging for you to tell the truth during this time that we are talking about is the reason you said the things that you did say?
A What do you mean? I mean, I don't understand your question.
Q I'm going to ask you one more time.
Isn't it the truth, Norman, that the reason that you said the things that you said that day was because for the first time somebody was asking you to tell what you knew happened on the 26th of June?
A Yeah. She told me that. But they weren't true.
Q What you said that day wasn't true?
A You mean that first, the first time they came?
Q That's what we're talking about, the first time.
A Yeah. Right.
Q So what you said that day you are saying wasn't the truth?
A Right. This is what I thought they wanted to hear because they asked me those questions. Victor Harvey.
Q You didn't think it was important for you on that day with your mother present and her urging you to tell the truth just to tell whatever the truth was; is that right?
MR. MARING: Your Honor, may I talk to the witness?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. MARING: Should I come up there or can he come {4828} down here?
THE COURT: Witness may step down to confer with counsel.
(Mr. Maring conferred with the witness.)
Q (By Mr. Hultman) Now, I want you to think very carefully in response to the next question that I'm going to ask you. How is it that you explain that it was the FBI on that day that mentioned there was an AR-15 in the hands of Leonard Peltier rather than you, when in fact the FBI agents were there didn't even know that such a weapon existed or was in anybody's hands?
MR. TAIKEFF: Objection, Your Honor. That assumes a fact not in evidence.
MR. HULTMAN: That assumes a fact that is in the record.
MR. TAIKEFF: May we note, may we know the basis of that statement, Your Honor?
MR. HULTMAN: The basis for that statement is the fact that there is no knowledge of any kind of an AR-15 even being in existence at that particular time.
MR. TAIKEFF: Are we talking about September 22, or October 10th?
MR. HULTMAN: I'm talking about September 22nd.
MR. TAIKEFF: Does the Government mean to say, Your Honor, that they did not find the .223 cartridge in the trunk {4829} by that time? Is that what Mr. Hultman is saying in this courtroom?
MR. HULTMAN: I am saying an AR-15. That is what I am referring to.
MR. TAIKEFF: Doesn't that cartridge get fired from an AR-15 that you found in the trunk?
MR. HULTMAN: At a later time according to the report it was so determined, Counsel.
MR. TAIKEFF: Well, what did it look like, a Pepsi-Cola bottle when it was found in the trunk?
THE COURT: Just a moment. The jury will disregard any comments by counsel which are obviously meant for the jury's attention. And I'm referring specifically to the dialogue that just took place between counsel. That was obviously designed simply to have the jury hear the argument.
It is irrelevant at this point in the trial with reference to this question pending before this witness.
MR. HULTMAN: May I continue, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may proceed.
Q (By Mr. Hultman) Norman, it was in fact you that stated that day that Leonard Peltier had an AR-15, was it not, because you had seen him with an AR-15?
A What do you mean. I said it was, looked like an M-16. I didn't say it was an AR-15.
Q All right. It was, you then said that it was an M-16 or {4830} looked like an M-16; isn't that right?
A Well, that was after they told me that I knew who were down there. They asked me what kind of guns they were carrying and I -- they asked me about Leonard and I told them that he had one that looked like an M-16.
Q Now, didn't you indicate the same thing at a subsequent time when you -- did you at a time not too much later sign a statement which indicated the same things that were the statements that you made at the time we're talking about now. Did you later sign an actual statement that told about the things that you had said on the occasion that we're just now discussing?
A Would you say that again?
Q Did you in fact sign a statement a little bit later concerning the matters and the things that we have just now been testifying about?
A Yeah. It was --
Q And I'm going to show you now what has been marked a similar copy as Defendant's Exhibit 110 and I am going to show you the original document itself and ask you whether or not you recognize the signature that is thereon?
A Yeah.
Q And whose signature is that?
A Mine.
Q And do you remember the time and the occasion when you signed that particular signature?
{4831}
A Yeah.
Q And was that on Chinle on the 10th of October in 1975?
A Might have been. I mean, the date, I don't know, I don't remember the date.
Q Well, if you were to look at the document itself would that help you in any way?
A What do you mean?
Q If you were to look at it would it give you an, or refresh your memory as to approximately what time it was?
A Yeah. The date's up there and the time.
Q And do you recall in having looked at it that that was approximately when it was, both date and time?
A No. Just remember that second time. I don't remember the date, though.
Q All right. Do you remember that it was sometime around 12:05 P.M., around noon sometime?
A Yeah. Around noon.
Q All right. And were the persons present who are indicated on there in addition to yourself?
A What do you mean?
Q Well, were the people that were there with you the same people as you have testified to earlier and that appear on this particular document, the agents?
A Are these the people that were there?
Q That's what I asking you.
{4832}
A Yeah.
Q All right. And did you likewise initial all of the various pages that are on that particular document?
A Yeah. They told me to.
Q And did you in fact use your initials at some places were some corrections of one kind or another were made?
A What do you mean?
Q Do you remember counsel asking you at an earlier time about possibly some corrections and your initials appearing on a similar document to this? A copy that he showed you. For example, do you remember making these initials right here (indicating)?
A I don't remember.
Q All right. Now, did you then at a later time appear before a grand jury?
A Yup.
Q And outside of the two times I have discussed with you now were there any other times that agents had talked to you about the events on the 26th of June, 1975?
A What do you mean?
Q Well, counsel asked you how many times, or words to this effect, that the agents had seen you and talked to you; and I don't remember exactly what you said, but I'm wondering whether or not, and that's why I'm asking you the question, were there any times other than these two occasions up to now we're going {4833} to talk about the grand jury?
A No.
Q It was those two occasions; isn't that right?
A Yeah.
Q And those were the only times?
A Yeah.
Q All right. Did your mother go with you to the grand jury?
A Yup.
Q And was she with you outside of the time that you were in the grand jury itself to talk to you and visit with you and discuss anything with you that you wanted?
A Yeah.
Q Now, were there any FBI agents in the grand jury at the time you told the things that you told them in the grand jury?
A I don't think so.
Q Just a group of people, was it not?
A Yeah.
Q And somebody asking you some questions?
A Yeah.
Q Now, I'm going to ask you, Norman, whether or not you remember being asked this question at the grand jury. Do you remember being asked the question: "Did you see anyone other than the two agents go down towards the cars at that time?"
Do you remember being asked that question?
A Yeah, I think so.
{4834}
Q All right. And then your answer: "What?"
And then the question: "Did you see anyone go down, walk down toward the cars," and do you remember what your answer then was?
A You mean to that question?
Q Yes.
A Yeah. That I saw Bob, Dino and Leonard down there.
Q All right. Your answer was "Yes" and the question was: "Would you tell the grand jury as closely as you can what you recall about what happened and who the individuals were that went down there?"
Do you remember that was the next question then?
A Might have been. I don't remember the questions.
Q All right. And do you recall an answer, your answer then which was substantially what you just said a second ago and in a little greater detail, "Well, I was sitting by the propane tanks. Then I got up, I was looking on both sides of the houses. That house then I saw two people go down. I think one was Peltier and the other was Butler this way."
That was what you said to the grand jury in response to that general question. "Would you tell the grand jury as closely as you can what you recall about what happened and who the individuals were that went down there?"
Isn't that a fair conclusion? That is what you said at that time?
{4835}
A Yeah. I guess so, yeah.
Q There weren't any FBI men in there at that time, were there?
A I don't know.
Q Your mother was there outside, was she not?
A Who?
Q Your mother?
A Yeah.
Q You also -- do you remember being asked this question: "What happened at the time you saw three people down at the bottom of the hill by the agents?"
Do you remember giving any answer of any kind to a question of that kind?
A No, I don't remember.
Q This is after you had gone ahead and in response to that I do show the record fairly, that you indicated in response to a question that you said then: "I looked around again and the hood was up and then I saw three of them down there. And I don't know who the other one was."
"Question: Did you at one time indicate who you thought it was or who it might have looked like?"
And your answer: "Yes." And then the question to you: "Who was it?"
Do you remember what your answer was to the grand jury?
A No.
{4836}
Q Would you argue with me at all if I said the answer was: "I think it was Robideau."
Do you remember saying that?
A Yes.
Q All right. Now, then I get to the question I just asked so that I wasn't misleading anyone. The question was: "What happened at that time that you saw three people down at the bottom of the hill by the agents?"
Do you remember what your response was to that question?
A No.
Q Would you argue with me if I indicated the answer, the record was: "I heard some shots, I think it was three, or was it? Two or three shots, it was three shots."
Do you remember giving an answer of that kind?
A Yeah, I remember.
Q Do you remember the only time that I talked to you other than the brief moments on the night we've already discussed in Cedar Rapids, do you remember that occasion?
A You mean that night before we left?
Q Yes.
A Yeah.
Q Do you remember where it was that I met you and who was with you?
A No.
Q Wasn't it with your mother?
{4837}
A Might have been. I don't -- I can't remember.
Q You wouldn't say it wasn't your mother if I indicated to you that it was?
A I don't know.
Q She came with you, did she not?
A Cedar Rapids?
Q Yes.
A Yeah.
Q And at that time when I discussed some matters with you did your mother at any time indicate anything about the FBI at any time mistreating you when she was in your presence? Do you remember ever saying anything of that kind?
A What?
Q Do you remember when you and your mother and I were together her indicating anything in any way that anybody had mistreated you at any time?
A I don't understand your question.
Q Did your mother on that occasion, if you recall, make any complaints of any kind concerning any agents of the FBI?
A No. What she thought was after this, you know, she thought I wouldn't have to go to jail, you know, after this. This won't bug me no more is what she thought.
Q Norman, do you think that it's important that we tell the things that we saw and we observed?
A Are you trying to tell me that I saw them down there?
{4838}
Q No, no.
A That's what you're trying to say. I didn't see them down there. I'm saying that because the agents said that they said we know you saw this, we know you saw that.
Q My only question to you is just this if I might restate it to you.
A Yeah.
Q It's important that we honestly tell the things we saw and observed, isn't that a fair --
A Yeah. I did, too. I told the truth.
Q Would you now just please respond to my question. I'm just speaking in general terms. It is, and you feel strongly about that, do you not?
A Yes. It seems like, like you're calling me a liar. It seems that way to me. And I swore on that pipe there, sacred pipe.
Q No, my question, Norman, is this: Why is it then that even on the first occasion when somebody wanted to ask you truthfully what happened there that you asked your mother to take the names of the FBI agents?
A Yeah. That I told her to get the names of the agents.
MR. HULTMAN: I have no further questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. TAIKEFF
Q I think in response to a question from Mr. Hultman you said that Leonard Peltier was at Crow Dog's. Did you say that?
{4839}
A Yeah.
Q What date did you think you were being asked about?
A Could you say that again?
Q You were talking about a raid on Crow Dog's. Do you know the date that that occurred?
A September 5th.
Q Was Leonard Peltier there on September 5th?
A No.
Q How long ago had he left there?
A About a week, two weeks before that. I'm not sure. I think it was a week.
Q When Leonard was at Crow Dog's that summer do you know what he was doing there?
{4840}
A Yeah.
Q What was he doing there?
MR. HULTMAN: I object, Your Honor. This is beyond the scope of redirect.
MR. TAIKEFF: Your Honor, I'm trying to ascertain the date through this inquiry of his departure.
THE COURT: Very well. You may answer the question.
Q (By Mr. Taikeff) What was Leonard Peltier doing at Crow Dog's on the Rosebud Reservation that summer when you were there?
A Sun dance together. Sun dance.
Q What dates did you say were the dates of the sun dance that summer?
A July 29th through August 5th.
Q And do you recall, did he stay throughout the full sun dance?
A Yeah.
Q And do you recall how long after the sun dance was over he left the Rosebud?
A Would you say that again.
Q Yes. The sun dance ended on August 5th. How long did he stay after the sun dance?
A About, don't know, about two weeks.
Q Now Mr. Hultman pointed out the fact which is not in dispute that your mother was at your side.
A Uh-huh.
{4841}
Q When you were being interviewed by Agent Adams, Nez and Doyle. What was your mother doing during that interview?
A She was crying.
Q Now Mr. Hultman asked you a number of questions that were put to you on the grand jury and he also said to you, "Did you give certain answers," and he read your answers and you said basically "Yes, I was asked those questions and I gave those answers." Was that testimony true?
A No.
Q Were you afraid of the FBI when you were before the grand jury?
A Yeah.
Q When you came out of the FBI, I'm sorry, when you came out of the grand jury --
MR. TAIKEFF: Your Honor, I believe I have to correct myself. I may have misstated a question and put a fact in that should not be in.
Q (By Mr. Taikeff) What were the names of the agents who were there when you were interviewed and your mother was with you?
A J. Gary Adams and Victor Harvey.
Q It wasn't Doyle and Nez, is that right?
A No.
Q I was wrong about that?
A Yeah. You were wrong.
{4842}
Q When you got finished testifying in the grand jury and you came out, did you see any of the lawyers sitting at the government table?
A Yeah. It was that guy (indicating).
Q Which one is that?
A Sikma.
Q Mr. Sikma?
A Yeah.
Q Did he say anything to you?
A Yeah.
MR. HULTMAN: Your Honor, I object again. This is irrelevant, immaterial to any issue here and it calls clearly for hearsay.
MR. TAIKEFF: I'm asking him what was said, not to prove the truth of the statement.
MR. HULTMAN: And further --
MR. TAIKEFF: Prove the statement was made.
MR. HULTMAN: And further it's beyond the scope.
THE COURT: Counsel approach the bench.
(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the bench:)
THE COURT: What do you expect the answer to be?
MR. TAIKEFF: I expect the answer will be Mr. Sikma said quote "You did good. We could have put you away for a long time."
{4843}
MR. HULTMAN: I object to that.
MR. SIKMA: That's a lie. That's an absolute lie.
MR. HULTMAN: Absolutely irrelevant and beyond the scope of direct and highly prejudicial.
THE COURT: In view of the denial, the question will not be allowed.
MR. LOWE: Mr. Sikma's denial?
THE COURT: That is right.
MR. TAIKEFF: We accept your ruling, Your Honor.
(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had in the courtroom in the hearing and presence of the jury:)
Q (By Mr. Taikeff) Finally, Mr. Brown, Mr. Hultman asked you about whether you believed that it was important for every witness who comes here to tell the truth and I think you said, I don't mean to quote you, "Of course I believe that, I swore on the sacred pipe." When you testified before the grand jury, did you swear on the sacred pipe?
A No.
MR. TAIKEFF: I have no further questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Taikeff and Counsel approach the bench.
(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the bench:)
MR. HULTMAN: Your Honor, again --
THE COURT: Just a minute.
{4844}
MR. HULTMAN: I was going to --
THE COURT: I previously in these proceedings, Mr. Taikeff, called to your attention the rule which I thought had been violated.
MR. ENGELSTEIN: Rule 610 I believe on the oath.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. ENGELSTEIN: 610 I believe.
THE COURT: 610?
MR. ENGELSTEIN: Yes.
THE COURT: Rule 610 which provides "evidence of beliefs or opinions of a witness on matters of religion are not admissible for purpose of showing by reason of their nature the credibility is impaired or enhanced."
I'm warning Counsel because of two occasions which Mr. Lowe mentioned that I did not think it was proper and I would like your explanation as to why you asked the witness questions?
MR. TAIKEFF: Your Honor said Counsel would not be permitted to argue to the jury one form of an oath or another was to be considered superior, that different categories of witnesses should not be considered more credible because they swear in a particular kind of way. However, Mr. Hultman opened the door on that inquiry because of the nature of his inquiry concerning this witness' beliefs in the necessity of telling the truth after pointing out that he gave testimony under oath {4845} in the other proceeding and then proceeded to ask him whether he believed it was appropriate to tell the truth when you come to testify and there was for this witness a specific personal difference. It may not be recognized by the law as between two different people but to this particular witness that issue was raised by Mr. Hultman's inquiry on cross-examination as to whether he believed it was appropriate for him to tell the truth.
MR. HULTMAN: I think, Your Honor, that the record will show my last question concerning the truth had to do with speaking with reference to law enforcement officers and coming forward I believe the record will show is my inquiry.
THE COURT: Just a moment. Just a moment.
MR. TAIKEFF: Immediately after reading --
THE COURT: I'm not going to pursue it any further. The record may show I consider it to have been an improper question, particularly in view of the previous ruling of this court.
MR. TAIKEFF: Okay.
(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had in the courtroom in the hearing and presence of the jury:)
MR. HULTMAN: No further questions. Thank you, Norman.
THE COURT: The Court is in recess until 3:55.
(Recess taken.)
{4846}

TRIAL TRANSCRIPT