US vs LEONARD PELTIER TRIAL TRANSCRIPT EXCERPTS Case Number CR77-3003

VOLUME 17

MR. TAIKEFF:  The defense calls Al Trimble.
 ALBERT TRIMBLE,
being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
MR. TAIKEFF:  May I proceed?
THE COURT:  You may proceed.
 DIRECT EXAMINATION
By MR. TAIKEFF:
Q  Your name is Al Trimble?
A  Yes.
Q  Where do you live?
A  Batesland, South Dakota.
Q  And is that on an Indian Reservation?
A  Yes.
Q  Which Reservation?
A  Pine Ridge.
Q  Were you born on that Reservation?
A  Yes.
Q  And have you resided there all your life?
A  No.
Q  What part or how much of your life did you live off the Reservation?
A  Three years in military service from 1945 and approximately {3615} 16 years in Federal Service in Spokane, Washington.
Q  What was that Federal Service?
A  With the Bureau of Indian Affairs. It was various other places too.
Q  In Washington you lived on an Indian Reservation though, did you not?
A  No.
Q  Do you presently hold any official and public office with respect to the Pine Ridge Reservation?
A  I am the president of the Oglala Sioux Tribe.
Q  And is that a position which you hold pursuant to an election?
A  Yes.
Q  And when were you elected to the presidency of the Oglala Sioux Tribe?
A  In January, 1976.
Q  And where do you have your official offices?
A  Pine Ridge, South Dakota.
Q  Pine Ridge is the place on the Reservation at which the center of Government sits, is that correct?
A  Yes.
Q  The entire Reservation has approximately how many residents?
A  I am not sure about the number of residents, but we say there are more than 12,000 tribal members.
Q  And of that total number, how many live in Pine Ridge?
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A  I am given to believe about 3,000.
Q  Is that the largest single center of population on the Reservation, Pine Ridge?
A  Yes.
Q  But it is not referred to as a city, it is a village, am I correct?
A  Yes.
Q  Now, in addition to your present function as tribal president, did you hold any official position on the Pine Ridge Reservation in the past?
A  I was the superintendent of the Pine Ridge Agency for the Bureau of Indian Affairs.
Q  And during what period did you hold that position?
A  Beginning November of 1973 until the end of March 1975.
Q  Can you summarize for the Court and jury the relationship between, or the comparison between the tribal government of which you are the chief executive officer, and the BIA so they will understand the different functions that you performed in the past and that you perform now?
A  Well, the Bureau of Indian Affairs carries out certain service functions for the people of the Reservation pursuant to Statutes and legislation, and in some cases treaty obligations; and these are services, such as education, welfare, law enforcement, and a variety of other programs; and the tribal government of course, is the elected tribal government of that particular {3617} sovereign entity of which the United States is trustee of the land.
Q  Now, the Bureau of Indian Affairs is an agency of the United States Government, is it not?
A  Yes.
Q  Particularly which Department?
A  The Interior.
Q  And the tribal government is a local government, is that correct?
A  Yes.
Q  It is the Reservation Government, so in some sense is it fair to say that the tribal government is like our State Government?
A  Yes.
Q  In relationship to the Federal Government, that it has its own areas of responsibility, and the Federal Government has its areas of responsibility?
A  Yes.
Q  Now, as the BIA superintendent, you were the executive who supervised many activities including which services, if any?
{3618}
A  Well, we provided all the education services.
Q  That would be the school system, the public school system?
A  No. The Bureau of Indian Affairs school system and welfare services, law enforcement services, trusteeship and management of Indian land. Those are the varieties.
Q  There are others. Your reference to law enforcement services, that would include the BIA police?
A  Yes.
Q  Now these employees who were known as BIA police, were they employed as federal employees?
A  Yes.
Q  And which criminal law did they enforce?
A  They enforced all of it. Well, the tribal code which is essentially those which are not felony in nature or major crimes. That's the nature of the tribal code. And, of course, they also assisted in the investigation of major crimes and in conjunction with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, major crimes being the responsibility of the United States government.
Q  If I can summarize that, the FBI has exclusive jurisdiction as to certain crimes, the BIA police had exclusive jurisdiction as to local or misdemeanor type crimes which are defined in the tribal code?
A  That's not quite right. There is an overlap. The Bureau of Indian Affairs plays a responsibility, had a responsibility to assist the Federal Bureau of Investigation but they did not {3619} present cases.
Q  Now as the BIA superintendent you had then a very special relationship with the police department. In a way you were the top cop, is that a fair statement?
A  According to Title 25 of the Code of Federal Regulations, the superintendent is the commander of police.
*Q  Okay.
Have you ever heard the term "goons"?
A  Yes.
Q  Does that term refer to a category or a group of people?
A  At Pine Ridge it did; yes.
Q  And did that term have any meaning in 1974 and 1975?
A  Yes.
Q  Can you describe the meaning of that term for the Court and jury?
A  Well, the common understanding of the term "goon" at Pine Ridge during the time I served as superintendent there, I guess I'd call them sort of a right wing activist that was a follower of the Dick Wilson and his administration, Dick Wilson being the tribal president at that time.
Q  Was there any pattern to their make-up concerning racial make-up?
A  Yes. I believe they're mostly thought to be mixed blood people as opposed to the more predominant full blood and traditional people that live in the outlying districts of the {3620} reservation.
Q  I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you.
A  And they, I believe, were people that did not mind exercising, oh, violence and intimidation in carrying out the role that was sort of expected of them.
Q  What was their role?
A  Well, they are felt to be sort of enforcers for the Wilson administration at that time.
Q  Wilson then held the tribal position that you now hold, isn't that correct?
A  Yes.
Q  And if you as tribal president found some violation of law to be in existence, is there a mechanism by which you could do something about that?
A  Yes.
Q  Specifically what could you do now if you became aware of the fact that there was a violation of the tribal code, for instance?
A  Call it to the attention of the law and order people.
Q  And that would be specifically who or what?
A  At this date it's still the Bureau of Indian Affairs police.
Q  And specifically in 1975 if you were the president at that time of the Oglala Sioux tribe and you were cognizant of any violation of law, you'd notify the BIA police, would you not?
A  Yes.
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Q  And expect them to carry out their duty under the law, would you not?
A  Yes.
Q  When you made specific reference a few moments ago to "even right now it's the BIA police," were you thinking about some change which is in the process of occurring?
A  Yes.
Q  Would you briefly summarize that for the Court and jury.
MR. HULTMAN:  If it please the Court, I have not objected up to now. I see no materiality or relevancy of the testimony evidently now elicited by this question.
MR. TAIKEFF:  I'll withdraw this question, Your Honor.
I would like to point out that when Mr. Hultman objects he always notes that he hasn't objected up to that point. I would like to suggest I haven't asked any objectionable questions, it's not because he's being overly generous.
THE COURT:  You may proceed.
MR. TAIKEFF:  Thank you.
MR. HULTMAN:  It's the latter, Counsel.
Q  (By Mr. Taikeff) Now to go back to the point of departure, you said in substance, I don't mean to quote you, that the goons acted as some kind of, did you say enforcers? I don't want to use the word you didn't use.
A  I believe I did.
{3622}
Q  Enforcers for Mr Wilson who was your predecessor in office. Was there then, did I misunderstand, no BIA police department?
A  There were BIA police; yes.
Q  Did the goons have any official governmental status?
A  No.
Q  As far as you could tell from your own observations, did they enjoy the equivalence of having the governmental status?
MR. HULTMAN:  I object to this, Your Honor, as calling for clearly an opinion and conclusion of the witness to which there is no proper foundation. Purely speculative.
THE COURT:  Sustained.
Q  (By Mr. Taikeff) Would you say that the goons brought to the reservation peace, tranquility and law and order?
A  No.
Q  Did they bring anything to the reservation?
A  I believe they made a contribution; yes.
Q  And what did they contribute?
A  To a considerable amount of social disruption or disorientation in the whole reservation community.
Q  And within the definition you gave us, were there any violations of law?
A  Yew.
Q  Any violence?
A  I believe so.
{3623}
Q  Now at first I asked you of your own personal experience rather than things which may have been generally believed on the reservation and I direct your attention to Labor Day, 1974, the rodeo.
MR. HULTMAN:  Your Honor, may we approach the bench.
THE COURT:  You may.
(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the bench:)
MR. HULTMAN:  I fail to see what the Labor Day of 1974 has any relevance of any kind. There is no showing that this defendant was even in the territory, let alone with any events we're not going into and I think I have been most generous in not raising objections but I think we're getting into all kinds of matters that go beyond the scope of relevancy and I'm going to indicate that on the record now and then I'm going to continue to object. I want that made very clear.
MR. TAIKEFF:  Your Honor, I took that point because I thought it was a reasonable point in advance of the spring of 1975 and to come forward from there to show some of the specific incidents and some of the problems which the people of Pine Ridge were confronted with in terms of lawlessness and violence and the two incidents I was going to ask him about which he was personally involved are rather extreme ones and {3624} he was the head of the police department. The one that I'm asking him about involves the take over of the goons of the jail, the disarming of the police and the emptying of the jail.
MR. HULTMAN:  I clearly object, Your Honor, that there is no nexus of any kind between this defendant, June 26th and that event. That is so irrelevant to any issues in time and place and it's highly prejudicial and I think under the rules the bringing of this kind of testimony before the jury clearly out Weighs probative value.
THE COURT:  We're getting far afield and I think I can see the relevance of the general conditions but I'm not going to permit you to go into the specific events.
MR. TAIKEFF:  All right. I just wanted to point out to Your Honor, not by way of further argument, but to refresh Your Honor's recollection for general purposes that in the course of the government's case there was testimony from one witness that there were rumors that the goons were going to attack the AIM group and one of the things I wanted to do with this particular bit of testimony was to show their potential, the actual strength that they had and the kinds of things that they were capable of doing so that they won't be in an indefinite, ill-defined force.
THE COURT:  Well --
MR. HULTMAN:  Could I respond also one more thing, {3625} Your Honor?
THE COURT:  You may.
MR. HULTMAN:  Counsel is attempting here to set up something by way of a straw man, straw man and straw men of goons and then somehow to lift himself by his boot straps to then say somehow that this defendant acted on that day because of events that had to do with goons. Now there has been, I'm not going to indicate what Counsel has just postulated may not be true. There may be some scintilla to the effect of what he said not raised by the government. I don't think at all, but maybe on the government's case, maybe that comment somewhere did enter and I'm not attacking that. What I'm saying, Your Honor, is there is no nexus of showing of any kind in this record other than maybe that one scintilla that this defendant and goons on that day had anything to do with Leonard Peltier and the FBI. All of the testimony to my knowledge clearly shows that the FBI was not looked upon in any way as goons. There is not one scintilla to that effect.
MR. TAIKEFF:  I don't make that claim and we will not.
MR. HULTMAN:  I don't see a nexus of any kind here.
THE COURT:  Well, as I mentioned, the only purpose of this evidence, and I think the defense has a right to show a reason for these people to be on the reservation, that's why I'm allowing general evidence relating to the reason for them being on the reservation but not getting into specifics.
{3626}
MR. TAIKEFF:  I understand.
(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had in the courtroom in the hearing and presence of the jury:)
MR. TAIKEFF:  Could I have one moment to consult with Counsel?
THE COURT:  Yes, you may.
Q  (By Mr. Taikeff) Mr. Trimble, contrary to my recent suggestion to you about focusing your attention on specific incidents that you were personally involved in, I would rather that you answer a different line of inquiry.
I would like you to focus your attention on the one year period, June '74 through June of '75 and in terms of, or with relationship to the subject of violence generally, that is to say, presence or absence of violence, I would like you to characterize for the Court and jury the Pine Ridge Reservation.
A  A general statement, sir?
Q  A general statement; yes. You think is a fair appraisal of the situation on the reservation.
A  It was a period of time when a very high number of killings were reported on the reservation, some of them brought to trial. It was a period when my administration, Bureau of Indian Affairs sort of came apart with the administration, the tribal government because of differences as to, at least from my part. However, I could not in good conscience in supporting what I felt was {3627} a corrupt tribal administration and I believe this led to some escalation. Certainly it did lead to instances which you initially asked me to comment on. Is that what you wanted?
Q  If that's your answer to my question, that's what I wanted.
Was there any particular impact that this situation had on the full blooded or traditional Indians on the reservation as opposed to any person in general?
A  Yes. It did increase the feeling and belief on the part of the full blooded traditional people living on the reservation that laws were not being equitably applied to them as others, that there was definitely, I guess you'd refer to it as selective law enforcement on the part of the police force that we had on the Pine Ridge Reservation.
Q  At that time you were, at least nominally, in charge of the police department?
A  Yes.
Q  Did you make any attempts to change the situation?
A  We made constant attempts to try to change the situation.
{3628}
Q  And were you successful?
A  I don't believe the picture would reveal any success, or at least considerable success
Q  At least during the year I asked you about, from June of '74 to June of '75?
A  That's right.
Q  I think you said that in the village of Pine Ridge there were 3,000 people and that in the entire reservation there were at least 12,000 registered, if not living there. Did I hear you correctly?
A  We believe there are 12,000 living there.
Q  That means if all 12,000 are in fact living there, there are 9,000 living outside of the village of Pine Ridge?
A  Yes.
Q  Those areas outside the village, is there a word or a phrase that describes those areas generically?
A  Yes. Districts.
Q  They call them districts?
A  Yes.
Q  How many districts are there?
A  There are eight districts and the village of Pine Ridge which is considered a district, as a political entity or subdivision I should say.
Q  Are there any districts in which the traditionals have a rather substantial influence or presence?
{3629}
A  At this point I believe there are.
Q  Let's go back to 1974-75, if there's any difference since then I'd like to know the state of affairs back then.
A  Well, I believe that the traditional philosophy among the Sioux people is more prevalent in the White Clay District in which Oglala community is located and in the Porcupine District.
Q  Now, in connection with your presence on the reservation as the BIA superintendent, which I understand continued until March of 1975, do you have any awareness of the presence of the American Indian Movement on the reservation?
A  Yes.
Q  Do you consider yourself a member of the American Indian Movement?
A  No.
Q  Would you categorize yourself as a supporter of the American Indian Movement?
A  No.
Q  Are you cognizant from your work on the reservation of any changes that may have been brought about by the presence of the American Indian Movement?
A  Well, it's my personal belief that the traditional and full-blooded people are much more cognizant of their own personal individual rights and seem more willing to try to exercise them now. And I believe they evidenced this in my own election as president of the tribe.
{3630}
Q  Are you a full-blooded Indian by the way?
A  No.
Q  From what you've observed, or by the way, your tenure as BIA superintendent ended in March of 1975. Did you continue on your reservation beyond that date?
A  I maintained my residence on the reservation; but officially I was moved by the Bureau of Indian Affairs to Albuquerque, New Mexico. I commuted to my job on a weekly basis.
Q  And did you then, after March of '75, resume full-time residence on the reservation?
A  I did again in November of '75.
Q  So then you were gone for a period of, on a part-time basis, somewhere between six and eight months?
A  Yes.
Q  Based on your experience and observations would you say that the American Indian Movement is a violent organization?
A  Not based on my experience as an administrator.
Q  Did you ever have to negotiate with them in connection with your role as BIA superintendent, or deal with them in your official capacity?
A  As a superintendent --
MR. HULTMAN:  Well, again, Your Honor, I object to the relevancy. I had not realized that the American Indian Movement was the subject of the trial here other than in a very, very possibly remote way. And I object to any further {3631} questions of this kind as to relevancy.
THE COURT:  Sustained.
MR. TAIKEFF:  I have no further questions.