US vs LEONARD PELTIER TRIAL TRANSCRIPT EXCERPTS Case Number CR77-3003

SA HUGHES DIRECT EXAM

VOLUME 14

MR. HULTMAN:  The Government calls Dean Hughes.
 DEAN HOWARD HUGHES
being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
 DIRECT EXAMINATION
By MR. HULTMAN:
Q  Would you state to the Court and to the jury your name, please?
A  Dean Howard Hughes.
Q  And what is the nature of your occupation, Mr. Hughes?
A  I am a Special Agent for the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Q  And approximately how long have you been in this capacity?
A  Approximately 11 years.
Q  And have you been a Special Agent for the FBI carrying out duties during this period of time on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation?
A  For approximately the last four years, yes.
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Q  And would you just in a sentence or two or three indicate to the jury what generally your responsibilities have been there?
A  Well, there is a certain number of violations on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation which the FBI has jurisdiction over, and those are the matters I have investigated over the last four years.
Q  Now, I want to take you to the month of June of 1975, and ask you how many Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation were available or who had responsibilities with reference to duties concerning the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation?
A  Well, there were approximately 12 of us assigned to Rapid City. We didn't all work necessarily on the Reservation.
Q  In other words, is it a fact that of the 12 Agents that worked out of the Rapid City office, that you have general jurisdiction concerning crimes and criminal matters above and beyond those that pertain to the Reservation itself?
A  That's correct.
Q  All right. Now, I wish to take you to -- is included in those responsibilities and duties the serving of arrest warrants?
A  That's correct.
Q  And is that a normal function of the Federal Bureau of Investigation?
A  Yes.
Q  And I want to take you to the 25th of June now and ask {2867} you whether or not on that particular day you had any responsibilities on the Reservation or in and about the Reservation?
A  You said the 25th of June?
Q  Yes, sir, the 25th of June.
A  The 25th of June, yes, I was working on the Reservation.
Q  All right, and I now want to take you to the 26th of June and ask you what, if anything, that you were doing on the 26th of June, 1975?
A  Well, I made preparations that morning to take a prisoner I had arrested the previous day to Rapid City to arraign him before the U. S. Magistrate.
Q  All right, and what were the circumstances, just briefly, surrounding that arrest?
A  The arrest of this particular prisoner?
Q  Yes.
A  I had arrested him with some other Agents on the 25th of June in the vicinity of Porcupine, South Dakota. That's a village on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation.
Q  Who was that individual?
A  Theodore Paul Poyer.
Q  For what crime had he been arrested?
A  Violation of Title 18, Section 1153, assault with a dangerous weapon.
Q  All right. Now, what, if anything, then in approximately {2868} what time on the 26th were you doing anything concerning this individual?
A  Well, at 10:58 in the morning I had placed him in my FBI automobile and briefly talked to him, after advising him of his rights; and he didn't really give me any information other than some background information, and at that time I had a brief conversation with Special Agent Ronald Williams.
Q  And would you tell us where that took place?
A  That took place right in front of the Pine Ridge jail on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation.
Q  All right, what, if anything, were you preparing to do at that time?
A  I had placed prisoner Poyer in my automobile, and I was planning to take him to Rapid City, South Dakota, to arraign him before the U. S. Magistrate.
Q  All right. What, if anything, was the nature of the conversation with Mr. Williams at that time?
A  Well, Agent Williams and I discussed briefly his -- he indicated that he attempted to locate and arrest James Eagle in the vicinity of Oglala, South Dakota, the previous day, and he indicated this was negative.
Q  That was a similar responsibility to the one you had the day before when you did in fact arrest the person that you had now in your custody, is that right?
A  That's correct.
{2869}
Q  All right. About what time was this?
A  Well, I had the conversation at 10:58. I happened to glance at my watch. To the best of my recollection that's when the conversation took place.
Q  All right. What, if anything, happened next?
A  Well, I placed the prisoner in my car; and then I started for Rapid City. I had another Agent follow me, and we started driving towards Rapid City, South Dakota.
!Q  All right, and what route did you take from the time you left with reference to the place that you were going?
A  I left Pine Ridge on Highway 18 which goes to Oelrichs, South Dakota. Then you turn right and proceed on to Rapid City. It is Highway -- I think it is 385 for a way, and then as you go past Hot Springs it becomes Highway 79. It is a standard route to get to Rapid City.
Q  Did you in fact then, in looking at Government Exhibit 71 which is behind you, traverse the route on part of Highway 18 that is shown there.
A  Yes. That's the part of Highway 18 that goes by the village of Oglala, South Dakota, the area of Oglala.
Q  All right. So you left Pine Ridge then, and you went down Highway 18 as on 71, moved from the right to the left as we are looking at it, and proceeded on, is that correct?
A  That's correct.
Q  Approximately how long had you been an Agent and working {2870} in the general area?
A  I was assigned to Rapid City on March 30th, 1973, so I had been there, oh, just roughly three years.
Q  Were you generally familiar with the area that's represented on Governments Exhibit 71?
A  Yes. I had been in there several times in that general area.
Q  All right. Now, what, if anything, happened next that came to your attention that morning?
A  Well, I was traveling between Oelrichs and Hot Springs, heading towards Rapid City, when about half-way between these two points I heard what I thought was the voice of Agent Ronald Williams calling for help over the FBI radio.
Q  Now, had you heard Agent Williams' voice on the radio before?
A  Yes, numerous times.
Q  What, if anything, was it that you heard over the radio at that time? Let's start at the beginning.
A  Well, I am not positive about the exact words or the arrangement, but to the best of my recollection he said some thing to the effect that "We are being fired on, we are in a little valley in Oglala, South Dakota, pinned down in a cross fire between two houses," something to that effect, he said.
Q  And what, if anything, happened next?
A  Well, again I don't recall his exact words, but he was {2871} directing Agent Gary Adams to his rescue; and I assumed that Adams was in that immediate area somewhere.
Q  All right, and what was the nature of the words to the best of your recollection that you heard at that time?
A  Well, he said something to the effect, "Get to the high ground," talking to Agent Adams; and he subsequently said something to the effect, "Hurry up and get here, or we are going to be dead men."
Q  And what, if anything, did you hear next?
A  Well, the last thing I heard, what I thought he said was very vaguely, "I am hit," and that's the last thing I heard Agent Williams say.
Q  Now, what, if anything, happened next?
A  Well, the Agent behind me who was following me in a separate FBI vehicle indicated to me that he had also heard these transmissions, and that he was going to turn around and proceed back towards Oglala.
Q  And what, if anything, happened next?
A  I told him that I would drive on to Hot Springs to drop off my prisoner there and would return to Oglala, which I did.
Q  And what, if anything, did you do then?
A  Well, I drove at a high rate of speed to Oglala -- I am sorry, to Hot Springs, put my prisoner in the jail there, and then returned towards Oglala at a high rate of speed.
Q  Did you then traverse the same route back that you had {2872} taken in going?
A  That's correct.
Q  All right. Now, what, if anything, happened next?
A  Well, at a position between Oelrichs and Oglala, while I was proceeding towards Oglala, I observed the FBI automobile of this Agent who had been following me parked along the road with the blinkers on. I stopped and jumped out to look it over and see if he had been hurt. The car was locked, appeared to be o.k., so I proceeded on towards Oglala.
Q  All right, and what, if anything, happened next?
A  As I approached Oglala, I asked Agent Adams, Gary Adams over the air where I should go because I was unfamiliar with what was happening, and he indicated I should stop at a position north of him, and as I drove up to that area I observed numerous police vehicles parked off to the side of the road, and I stopped and parked my car off the side of the road there.
Q  All right. I am going to ask you to look at Government's Exhibit 71 and indicate, if you can, the approximate area that you had just testified to?
A  You want me to go up to the map?
Q  Would you approach the exhibit?
A  To the best of my knowledge I approached from this area (indicating), and there is an area off here (indicating) where you can park, and I swung my vehicle and parked it in here somewhere (indicating). There were numerous other police type {2873} vehicles parked in there.
Q  All right you can return back.
{2874}
Q  Do you have any idea as to approximate time that this may or may not have been the time that you did return under the point you're now discussing?
A  I would estimate I arrived in Oglala at that time at approximately 1:00 P.M.
Q  All right. Now, what if anything did you see then or do at the point where you pulled off of Highway 18 in the general location that you've indicated?
A  Well, I observed some BIA police officers and a couple FBI agents leading a search team down toward the creek. So I --
Q  Excuse me.
A  So I joined this group.
Q  All right. Was one of those in that group the agent who had gone, who had left with you to go with your prisoner and whose car you then later testified to a moment ago that you saw?
A  Yes, it was.
Q  Did you find out at that time or at some later time, I mean why his car was there?
A  Yes. He told me later what had happened to his car.
Q  What if anything did you do next?
A  Well, the agents briefly briefed me on what their plan was. They were going to search for the agent. We only knew Agent Williams might be missing at that time.
So I joined this group and took charge of this group {2875} and we ran down to White Clay Creek and proceeded to follow this creek.
Q  All right. I'm going to ask you now, with the Court's permission, for you to go to Government's Exhibit 71 and indicate what it is, the route that you took and the things that happened, that did appear, those things which you can project on Government's Exhibit 71.
A  Okay.
Q  Beginning with the fact that you are in the area you had previously pointed out along Highway 18, would you indicate to us then the route that you took.
A  We parked here (indicating), at least I did, and we ran down to the creek area. Past through some open areas, and this creek is very densely wooded. It varies. It's, at that time of year, it was very densely wooded.
And we got in the water and heavy brush surrounding that creek. We initially traveled in a northwest position and then circled around, and actually we ended up going over here to a southeast position south of this. These houses over here down in there.
Q  All right. Now, was there a route in fact on the ground that you followed primarily?
A  We just followed the creek here. It was a northwest and then south and then southeast.
Q  All right. Whichever way the creek went is the way that you {2876} went; is that right?
A  We stuck to the creek because that's where the cover was.
Q  All right. Now, what if anything, what if anything happened at the time when you emerged from the route that you've indicated?
A  Well, as we traveled through the creek area we heard sporadic firing and the firing seemed to be coming from a green house that was located right here (indicating).
So our only thought at that time was to try and get to a position where we could approach that green house.
Q  All right. How did you conclude that the firing was coming from the green house, or generally speaking?
A  We could hear the sounds from the reports and just seemed to be coming from that house.
Q  All right. Now, where was it then that you came out of the woods that you're now, the route that you've just now traversed generally?
A  Our final destination, traversing through the woods, we went right approximately in here, a position what appeared to me at that time southeast of the green house.
Q  All right. Could you see the green house when you came out of the woods at that general location?
A  If you left the woods and got up to the edge you could see the green house, yeah.
Q  All right. Now, did you in fact proceed out of the woods, you {2877} yourself personally?
A  Yes. At that time we had no idea where Agent Williams was or what his condition was, or if any other agents were with him. So a brief plan was to form a line and approach out here to an area where I could holler at the house to try and get a response to find something out about Williams.
And we did that. Officer, one of the BIA officers was with me and we approached out front more or less on the right side into an open area. And prior to my being able to announce anything an individual ran from this green house, from the area there, towards me and snapped a shot at me with a rifle. It was just a quick thing and a shot come quite close. I got the distinct impression that it must missed me.
Q  What if anything did you do?
A  Well, we saw that this wasn't going to work obviously as all exposed through there. So we got back in the creek and the regrouped to a position somewhere in there. More or less a little bit to the left of where our original position was. And at that time I hollered an announcement at the individuals in the green house.
Q  And what if anything did you say at that time?
A  Well, there again I'm not positive on my exact words, but I said something to the effect that "Hello, the green house," to get their attention, "This is the FBI and the BIA, you are surrounded, come out with your hands up and without your guns {2878} and there will be no shooting".
Q  And what if anything happened at the end of your announcement?
A  Well, immediately after that announcement we received a great deal of firing at us from this area of the green house. And we received some firing at us from other positions that I don't know where it came from.
Q  Now, and up to this time that you're now testifying had you or anyone in your group done any firing of any kind?
A  No.
Q  All right. What if anything happened next?
A  I directed members of the search team to return fire at individuals at the green house were firing at us. And it was a matter of concern that they didn't fire indiscriminately because I didn't know where the agents were, agent or agents, so I asked them to fire only at specific targets. And fire was returned by the search team.
Q  All right, And what if anything happened next?
A  Not an FBI agent, a BIA police officer somewhere behind me said something to the effect, I think one was hit outside the green house." And after he said that firing was over. It had ceased.
Q  All right. And what if anything happened next?
A  At that time Agent Gerard Waring who was with me got in a tree and he had a rifle with a scope and he advised that he {2879} observed the car of FBI Agent Jack Coler in a field, in a valley.
He said it was about two hundred yards west of our position, what I thought he said. And he noted that he was familiar with this automobile. It was a 1972 Chevy, and it had been shot up. And he noted it had Colorado license plates on it, and Agent Coler was from the Denver division of the FBI.
Q  All right. Now, up until that moment when Agent Waring indicates something that he has seen or perceived through his scope, had you any knowledge of any kind, one, as to the whereabouts first of Agent Williams?
A  No.
Q  Or Agent Coler?
A  No. I hadn't heard Coler at all.
Q  Or the location of either of their automobiles?
A  No.
Q  All right. The only thing you knew in effect were what you had heard in terms of radio transmissions; is that right, generally speaking?
A  Prior to that we didn't have a radio. Our radio went out. So I didn't know what was happening after I entered the creek area.
Q  All right. Now, what if anything happened next?
A  Well, I advised the search team to stay put here and officer, one of the BIA officers and one of the FBI agents and I {2880} traveled down here to check out the automobile of Agent Coler.
Q  All right. And where approximately did you then come back from the creek and the wooded area? Do you remember any objects or anything in that general area?
A  Well, we traveled right down through here (indicating) and come out behind these corrals in this area right here somewhere (indicating), which appeared to be the closest spot we could get to the agents' car without being in an exposed area.
This was all low grass and you would be exposed if you ventured out there.
Q  All right.
MR. HULTMAN:  Let the record show that the general area that the agent has just testified to is a corral, as represented on Government's Exhibit 71. And there is a marking of Z-3 in the general area of that corral.
Q  (By Mr. Hultman) All right. What if anything did you see or observe or do next?
A  Well, as the three of us traveled down through here we were shot at four or five times. Bullets hit right above us. So we had to be careful.
I hollered at the FBI automobile and could get no response. I couldn't see any bodies or any activity around it. I could see it had been thoroughly shot up, front tires were flat. But I still had no idea where any agents were.
Q  All right. And what if anything did you do next?
{2881}
A  I left the BIA officer, an agent, an FBI agent here (indicating) and I traveled back to here (indicating), got the search team, brought them back here (indicating) and regrouped there near the car of Coler, Agent Coler.
Q  Now, did you have any sense of time during the period that you have discussed here as to any sense of time as to when any of these events approximately may have taken place?
A  To the best of my knowledge the shoot-out here occurred at approximately 2:25, 2:30 P.M. when the BIA officer announced that I think one was hit outside the green house.
Q  All right.
A  This town here, when we regrouped here, would be roughly 3:00 o'clock, 3:00 P.M. approximately.
Q  All right. Now, what if anything happened next?
A  I sent an agent out to the highway where I thought Agent Adams was, and instructed him to return with additional men, equipment, gas, radio equipment to prepare for an assault upon this group of houses here as that seemed to be the area where the people that were responsible for this matter, as they were the ones who did the shooting.
Q  Now, throughout the testimony you have indicated that you were the one that was giving the instructions and so forth. Am I to assume that you were the one that took charge of the particular group after you left the Highway 18 area? Is that a fair conclusion on my part?
{2882}
A  That is correct.
Q  All right. Now, what if anything at this time again did you still have any knowledge of any kind as to where Agent Williams might be or his condition?
A  No, I did not.
Q  Or did you have any knowledge now other than the fact that Agent Coler's car was in the area with numerous bullet holes as to where his personal location or condition might be?
A  Well, I knew this was Coler's car also and I figured he was in this. But I had no idea where he was or what his involvement was.
Q  Was this the first occasion when you yourself had seen the car?
A  That is correct.
Q  I mean on this, at this particular moment or this period of time from the time that it was in this general area?
A  It's the first time I had seen the car that day.
Q  All right. Now, what if anything did you do next?
A  Well, we maintained our position. And at approximately 4:20 P.M. an individual came from the vicinity of this residence (indicating) which at that time I thought was the residence of a girl by the name of Joanne LeDou, as I've seen here there several times.
Q  All right. Had you been in that particular, at that residence in that general location before?
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A  I hadn't been to it before. I had been outside the residence.
Q  All right.
MR. HULTMAN:  Let the record show that this is on Government Exhibit 71 shown there as with a marker that says "First residence" and then tan and red house.
Q  (By Mr. Hultman) All right. What if anything happened next?
A  Well, this individual was wearing a white T shirt. He had his hands up and I directed him to come down. I hollered at him to come down to our area, which he did, and as he approached I recognized him as Edgar Bear Runner. And he identified himself as Edgar Bear Runner.
He walked this way by the agent's car, up to our position.
Q  All right. You say that you recognized Edgar Bear Runner:  is that right?
A  That's correct.
Q  You had seen him on a previous occasion; is that right?
A  Yes.
Q  All right. Now, what if anything happened next?
A  I asked Edgar Bear runner about the condition of the agent, or agents, and he first indicated that he had been sent in there by BIA Superintendent Kendall Cummings to negotiate a peace, and he had twenty minutes to do so and get back.
{2884}
And he indicated that there were two individuals lying alongside the car. He didn't know if they were alive or dead.
Q  All right. And what if anything happened next?
A  I asked him to check on the condition of the agents. And he walked up here with his hands up, stood there briefly and then walked up here toward the vicinity of the green house without giving any indication. He gave no indication to us whether they were alive or dead.
Q  All right. And what if anything did you observe then once he reached the general vicinity of the green house?
A  Well, earlier down here (indicating) he had told me that this was his party up here, but he didn't know who was up there.
Now, at this time he stood right in this area (indicating) between the green and the white house just briefly with his hands up and then he disappeared from view.
Q  All right. Did you see any other individual during that period of time other than Mr. Bear Runner?
A  No, not right then.
Q  All right. Now, what if anything did you next observe?
A  A few minutes later Edgar Bear Runner reappeared from this area here (indicating) with a white male, who I didn't know at that time, and they walked down here with their hands up and stood in that area approximately alongside Agent Coler's car, {2885} standing there with their hands up looking down.
Q  All right. And what if anything did you do?
A  At that time I got up from my position of cover and a BIA officer got up with me and we walked out here with our guns lowered. And at that time I observed Agent Ronald Williams and Agent Jack Coler lying obviously dead on this side of the agent's car. (Indicating.)
Q  All right. Would you come back to the seat, and I want to show you what has been previously introduced in this trial as Government's Exhibit No. 54 and ask you whether or not you recognize the general scene that is portrayed on the first page, page 1 of Government's Exhibit 54?
A  Yes. That's a good representation of what I observed when I observed the two agents lying there dead.
Q  Now, this photo is actually taken at a later time, is it not?
A  A little bit later in the afternoon.
Q  All right. But the, what is it that you are referring to when you say what things it is that represents that you saw at that time we are now talking about?
A  Well, I observed that the agents had been dead obviously for a period of hours because there was a great deal of dried blood underneath their heads with flies buzzing around.
Q  Well, now did you see the bodies in the relative position as indicated in the photograph number 1?
{2886}
A  That's correct.
Q  All right. And that was the time and place now when you walked out with someone else and Mr. Bear Runner and Mr. Cummings were standing at the car?
A  The four of us were standing there, yes.
Q  All right. Looking at the automobile itself that is represented here, and whose car was that?
A  That was Agent Jack Coler's.
Q  Was it in relatively the same condition with a door open and with a trunk lid up as you remember at that time?
A  Yes. The driver's door was open and the trunk lid was up when I saw it at 4:30 that day.
Q  All right. And is the same true as far as the photograph number 4 on that exhibit, is that likewise the general scene that you saw portrayed at that time that you're now testifying to?
A  Yes, it is.
Q  All right. Is the same true as far as the bodies of the agents and the automobile as far as the other scenes that are portrayed in this exhibit?
A  Yes.
Q  All right. Now, what if anything did you do next?
A  I and the BIA officer returned to our position that we had left and Edgar Bear Runner and the white male who identified himself to me as Kendall Cummings, acting BIA Superintendent {2887} for the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, returned to the houses on top of the hill, that area.
Q  All right. And what if anything did you observe or do next?
A  When I returned to my position the agent I had sent out previously to get gas and equipment and men had just returned with approximately twenty additional local law enforcement officers and some FBI agents. A lot of them, I didn't know the local officers.
Q  All right. At the time that you were at the car just a moment before to which you've been testifying and saw the two agents, was there anything generally as to their clothing or the position of any clothing that you observed at that time that you recall?
A  On the two dead agents?
Q  Yes.
A  What I observed was that Agent Williams was naked from the waist up. He had his gun missing from his holster.
I observed that Agent Coler had his shirt partially pulled up towards his shoulder and he appeared to have a bandage of some kind wrapped around his upper right arm.
Q  All right. And you indicated they were laying face down?
A  They were laying face down, both the same way apparently, obviously.
Q  All right. Now, what if anything did you do next then upon {2888} return from the cars back to the corral area and the edge of the woods?
A  Well, as I indicated at that time the agent I sent out earlier had returned with the additional men and equipment.
At this time I had a radio and I immediately put word out over the FBI radio that Agent Williams and Agent Coler were dead. And I then organized this group of law enforcement people into three groups. And the agent that I had sent out took two of the groups with him and some of these individuals had M-16's, and then they went to a place where we were originally south of the green house.
{2889}
Q  Now were any of those agents to which you are now referring, were any of those agents members of S.W.A.T. teams to your knowledge?
A  I recall a couple agents from Minneapolis division that were members of S.W.A.T.
Q  And do you recall any teams as such being present at that time?
A  I don't know if there were any. By team that generally means five individuals. I don't know if there were any full five man teams there or not. I don't know what the local law enforcement people, I don't know the individuals so I don't know what their particular area was.
Q  Now what if anything then was the plan that you developed at that time beyond what you've stated to the jury at this moment?
A  Well, the plan was to take an assault and clear the houses on top of the hill where the shooting seemed to be coming from. This was to be done. We originally, the final plan was to do it at 5:50 P.M.
Q  What if anything then happened?
A  Well, at 5:50 P.M. I ordered agent, one of the FBI agents to fire gas at the green house, which he did.
Q  When you refer to gas, what kind of gas is it that you're --
A  Laymen's term, I guess, it would be tear gas.
Q  What was the purpose of firing the tear gas?
{2890}
A  We anticipated being shot at a great deal when we assaulted these houses since shooting had been coming from this house before and the tear gas would be running through an open area for maybe 300 yards would perhaps disenable them to shoot us straight.
Q  Would you thus likewise be able to find out who if anyone was in the building at that particular moment?
A  Well, hopefully when you gas a place the people will come out and throw down their weapons and give up, but that didn't happen.
Q  What if anything happened next?
A  Well, after the agent fired the gas, the teams that were directly south of the house began their assault and my group began our assault.
Q  Had you given any particular instructions to anybody in your group?
A  No. Just assault and clear the houses of any individuals there.
Q  Did all of the people in your group assault together?
A  No.
Q  Who didn't and for what reason, if you know?
A  Well, I ordered one agent to remain in a concealed position behind Agent Gerald Waring and he had a rifle with a scope which is the only one I took notice of there. I directed him to fire at anyone who shot at us and to protect our rear as we {2891} assaulted the place.
MR. TAIKEFF:  Your Honor, could we have a clarification on that last piece of testimony. He spoke of Waring and a person he describes as "he." "He" was referring to the same person?
Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Were you referring to the same person?
A  Yes. Waring is the one I directed to stay behind.
Q  Now would you again return to Government's Exhibit 71 and indicate on it for the jury the general route that you took and any others that you knew or observed or had given instructions to. A. I left my position here and ran from this area up this way (indicating) and the other group, of course was to assault the place from this area (indicating) somewhere in here.
Q  What if anything then happened as you left your position?
A  Well, I got about halfway there and I had a great deal of rapid fire directed at me. I was packing my shotgun, an FBI shotgun and a portable radio and I dropped the radio and ran a zigzag position on towards the house. And at that time I heard a great deal of rapid fire from up in here which I presumed was our group assaulting the place (indicating). And I was able to get up here, crawl, hit the ground, crawl part of the way and eventually the houses were deemed clear and we were just standing around.
There was a lot of gas around. At that time one shot {2892} went through the area of the houses. I have no idea where it came from.
Q  Was anybody in your group that came from the corral and across the open ground with you personally or behind you, did anybody in that group have any M16s of any kind?
A  I don't know.
Q  Do you know whether or not anybody in the other group that was up in the corner that you just referred to, do you know whether or not anybody in that group, were there any M16's in that group?
A  Yeah. That group took some M16s with them.
Q  You indicated you heard some rapid fire in that general area as they were assaulting the house, is that right?
A  Well, I presumed it was the M16s. I've done a lot of shooting with M16s in practice and I've heard a lot of them. I don't know for sure but I presume.
Q  You don't know from your own knowledge then specifically, is that right?
A  No.
Q  And am I correct you didn't see specific shooting, you're only referring to what you heard?
A  That's correct.
Q  As you indicated, there was some fire that came in at the time you were somewhere in the general area of the middle of the open field. Did you have any idea specifically where that {2893} fire came from?
A  No. I really don't other than the sounds came from out here somewhere (indicating). But I don't know where it came from.
Q  Now after you were at the position of the green house and the white house, you indicated that one single round did come in, is that right?
A  That's correct.
Q  Did you again know where that round came from?
A  No.
Q  When you arrived at the top of the hill in the general vicinity of the houses, with relationship to any given house or houses, where did you arrive on top of the hill?
A  I went up over this rise to the green house right in here (indicating).
Q  And do I take it from your showing now that it was somewhere on what would be the north side of the green house between the green house and the white house?
A  That's correct.
Q  Now what if anything happened once you arrived at the green house?
A  Well, as I walked up here (indicating), I observed a dead Indian male laying on the northeast corner and an FBI agent walked up to me and handed me a rifle, a 30-30 Marlin with the letters AIM on the side and he said he had taken that off {2894} the dead Indian male that was lying there.
Q  And would you describe specifically where the Indian male was that you have just referred to, where he was lying?
A  Well, he was lying on the northeast corner of the green house within a few feet of the green house.
Q  And was there, would you describe what his position was and anything about him?
A  He was lying on his back and he was wearing one of the FBI S.W.A.T. jackets which had the letter "FBI" on the left breast pocket.
Q  Are you generally familiar with FBI S.W.A.T. jackets?
A  That's correct.
Q  Are you a member of a S.W.A.T. team yourself?
A  Yes, I am.
Q  And were you at that particular time?
A  Yes, I was.
Q  Did you have a S.W.A.T. in your group of agents that was stationed at Rapid City?
A  Yes, we did.
Q  And were any members of that team, as you recall, with you during that particular day?
A  Not with me specifically; no.
Q  So is it fair for me to conclude, you weren't there at any time operating as a S.W.A.T. team in any way?
A  No. Just some of us assigned to Rapid City belonged to a {2895} S.W.A.T. team.
Q  Do you know whether or not Agent Coler or Agent William's belonged to S.W.A.T. teams?
A  Agent Coler belonged to a S.W.A.T. team in the Denver division, Agent Williams did not belong to S.W.A.T.
Q  Since you arrived had you had any type of operation at any time in which you operated as a S.W.A.T. team?
Q  Would it be customary for S.W.A.T. team members to have items of their equipment such as their jacket in their automobile?
A  That's customary to carry your equipment in your automobile; yes.
Q  Now I'm going to show you, you might return again, what has previously been introduced into evidence here as Government Exhibit 54 and I would like you to look at a series of photographs on page 16 of that exhibit and ask you whether or not you recognize the scene that is portrayed in any of the photographs that are on that page.
A  Well, there are three photographs here I took of the dead Indian male who was lying on the northeast corner of the green house that day, the 26th of June.
Q  So then at a later time you in fact photographed the individual that you have been discussing, is that right?
A  Yes, I did. Later that day.
Q  And those photographs, three of them, are portrayed on {2896} very page of this exhibit, is that right?
A  Yes.
Q  And are those a fair and accurate representation of what you saw and observed at the time when you arrived at the green house as well as at the time when you took the photographs?
A  Yes.
Q  And would you point out to the jury where it is on any one of those photographs, maybe photograph C, the specific object or jacket that you are referring to that you just testified to.
A  This is an FBI S.W.A.T. jacket. It's Army type color. It has the letters "FBI" very plainly on the jacket pocket there, left jacket pocket.
Q  Now what if anything did you do next or observe next?
A  Well, I then began a crime scene investigation of that immediate area around the green house.
Q  And what if anything did you find during the course of that search?
A  Well, the agent that handed me the Marlin 30-30 rifle for examination also handed me a .22 magnum pistol which he said a highway patrolman had taken out of the holster of the dead Indian male and the dead Indian male was wearing a holster.
Q  Is this same person which you have been referring to and of which you took a picture?
A  Yes, it is.
{2897}
Q  I'm going to show you what has previously been introduced in this case as Government Exhibit 32A and ask you whether or not you recognize that particular object. I'm going to show you what's been previously entered into evidence as Government Exhibit 32A and ask you to look at it and examine and tell us whether or not you recognize that particular object.
A  This is the Marlin 30-30 with the letters "AIM" underneath here which the agent handed to me and said he had taken off the dead Indian male.
Q  You recognize it for the various objects then that appear on it?
A  Yes.
Q  What if anything else was exhibited to you at that time?
A  Well, as I mentioned, the .22 Magnum revolver and then I began the crime scene investigation, picking up numerous shell casings which were lying on each side of the green house.
Q  Did you notice anything concerning whether or not the individual who was there at the green house had a holster or not?
A  Yes. He was wearing a black holster which an agent, FBI agent indicated to me that a Highway Patrolman had taken the pistol out of the holster.
Q  There was no pistol in the holster when you observed it?
A  It was empty.
Q  What if anything did you do next? You indicated that you {2898} began then a search of that particular area.
A  I began picking up numerous shell casings that were laying alongside the green house. That would be the east side of the green house. They were lying on top of the grass in a clean and shiny condition, appeared to me to be relevant to the crime so I started collecting them.
Q  I'm going to show you what has been marked as Government Exhibit 29B and ask you to open it, to examine it and any documents that are there and then ask you whether or not you recognize them in any way?
A  As I picked up the shells on the east side of the green house, I put them in plastic bags and attached a note. Each note I initialed and where I found the articles and what they were and dated it.
Q  Is that what you are now looking at?
A  Yes.
Q  Do you recognize it as such?
A  30-06 caliber shells found on east side of the green house that day.
Q  What was the general condition of the shells themselves? A. Well, as I indicated, they were laying on top of the grass and dirt there. They weren't ground in so appeared to me obviously they had just been placed there. That's why I thought they were relevant and should be obtained.
Q  You then pursued after the proper marking and so forth that {2899} you used the manner that has been discussed previously in terms of turning the evidence in?
A  Well, I didn't want to mark the shells so I put the paper in the bag and I then turned them into the evidence room in Pine Ridge, South Dakota.
MR. HULTMAN:  Government offers Exhibit No. 29B.
MR. TAIKEFF:  No objection.
THE COURT:  29B is received.
MR. LOWE:  Is that five cartridge casings, is that what Exhibit 29B is?
MR. HULTMAN:  Right. Right.
Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Now I'm going to show you what has been marked as Government Exhibit 32B and ask you again to open it, examine any documents that are with it and then indicate whether or not you recognize the objects that are in that exhibit?
A  There again I have a note here with my initials on it dated 6/26/75 noting shells that are in this particular package. A 30-30, .44, 30-30 and a 30-06.
Q  And did you go through the same procedures that you just discussed with reference to the previous exhibit?
A  Yes. I bagged it, put my piece of paper in there noting what it was and turned it into the evidence room at Pine Ridge.
{2900}
Q  And you didn't put any markings on the rounds themselves again, is that correct?
A  No.
Q  All right. For the reasons that you have indicated, is that correct?
A  That's correct.
Q  All right, again would you describe the condition as you found the rounds that are represented in Government's Exhibit 32-B?
A  Well, they were clean. They hadn't been ground into the dirt. They didn't have any dirt on them, and obviously had just fallen there recently.
(Counsel confer.)
MR. TAIKEFF:  Your Honor, we have no objection to the shells. There apparently is some question about whether the Government is also offering the piece of paper which is contained in it.
MR. HULTMAN:  I have -- as long as there is no objection to what that indicates in terms of the chain and so forth, your Honor, I have no objection at all if we remove -- only those particular objects within -- only for reference purposes.
MR. TAIKEFF:  Then there is no objection. I don't think we will raise any question about continuity or possession or anything of that sort.
{2901}
MR. HULTMAN:  All right, so the Government offers 32-B with that indication, your Honor.
THE COURT:  I am not sure I understand the indication -- that the paper is going to be removed?
MR. TAIKEFF:  We don't object if it stays in there for convenience. Unless and until the jury requests that exhibit, it can stay in there.
THE COURT:  Very well.
MR. HULTMAN:  Your Honor, I think at an appropriate time we can remove them, and they can be marked so that it is known which exhibit they were a part of, for record purposes. That's all that we are concerned about.
THE COURT:  All right. 32-B is received.
(Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 32-B, having been previously duly marked for identification, so offered in evidence, was received.)
Q  (By Mr. Hultman) I will show you what has been marked as Government's Exhibit 33-B, and ask you to look at it and indicate whether or not you recognize what is contained therein?
A  (Examining) Here again these are shells I picked up on the east side of the green house on the day in question. I know that from the note here indicating what they are, and I dated it and signed it -- and initialed it. I didn't sign it.
Q  All right. Did you go through the same procedure with those particular rounds that you previously indicated?
{2902}
A  Yes. I then turned these into the evidence room in Pine Ridge, South Dakota.
Q  All right, and would you describe the general condition that you found the casings that are found in Exhibit 33-B?
A  Well, there again these shells are laying there in clear view, shiny, metallic objects laying there, obviously they haven't been rained on, and have been put there recently.
(Counsel confer.)
(Counsel examine document.)
MR. TAIKEFF:  We are offering no objection.
MR. HULTMAN:  Government offers Exhibit 33-B.
MR. TAIKEFF:  No objection.
THE COURT:  33-B is received.
(Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 33-B, having been previously duly marked for identification, so offered in evidence, was received).
Q  (By Mr. Hultman) I now show you what has been marked as Government's Exhibit 37-C, and ask you to take a look at that particular exhibit and once you have examined it, ask you the same question.
A  (Examining) These are .45 caliber automatic shells I picked up on the east side of the green house.
Q  And would you describe --
A  (Interrupting) That day, June 26th.
Q  And did you do the same things as far as preservation that {2903} you previously testified with reference to the other rounds?
A  Yes. There again these shells had obviously just been there a short time, and I packaged them up, put a note in it, dated it and turned it into the evidence room in Pine Ridge.
MR. HULTMAN:  All right. Government offers Exhibit 37-C, your Honor.
(Counsel examine document.)
MR. TAIKEFF:  No objection to that offer.
THE COURT:  37-C is received.
(Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 37-C, having been previously duly marked for identification, so offered in evidence, was received.)
(Counsel examine document.)
Q  (By Mr. Hultman) I am now going to show you what has been marked as Government's Exhibit 69-B, and ask you to analyze -- and then I am going to ask you some questions concerning that exhibit.
A  (Examining) Here again I have a note in here dated 6-26-75, initialed, indicating shells that I picked up on the east side of the green house that day.
Q  And did you do with these similarly as you had done with the others?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  All right. Now, I want to ask you just a couple of questions in case I may have not asked specifically of all of {2904} these various rounds that you found and which have been introduced here in testimony today, would you describe the relative condition of them as you observed, you have I know as to some?
MR. HULTMAN:  I would offer Government's Exhibit 69-B your Honor.
MR. TAIKEFF:  We would like to take a look at it.
MR. HULTMAN:  I am sorry.
MR. TAIKEFF:  Thank you.
(Counsel examine document.)
MR. TAIKEFF:  No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT:  69-B is received.
(Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 69-B, having been previously duly marked for identification, so offered in evidence, was received.)
THE COURT:  The Court is in recess until 11:35.
(Recess taken.)
{2905}
(Whereupon, at 11:35 o'clock, a.m., the following proceedings were had in the courtroom, the Defendant being present in person:)
THE COURT:  The jury may be brought in.
(Whereupon, at 11:37 o'clock, a.m., the jury returned to the courtroom, and the following further proceedings were had in the presence and hearing of the jury:)
MR. HULTMAN:  May it please the Court?
THE COURT:  You may proceed.
Q  (By Mr. Hultman) Mr. Hughes, we were discussing -- just placed into evidence a number of rounds, expended rounds, casings; and I wanted to ask you just a couple of more questions generally about the casings.
Once the items are found and placed into bags in the procedure you used, do those items ultimately go to the FBI laboratory?
A  That's correct.
Q  And do you know from your own knowledge then, generally speaking, those items are examined and then the items that may have some significance of some kind or some tie-up are then returned, is that right, just as a general --
A  (Interrupting) That's the general way it works, yes.
Q  And that the Agent in the lab who then does the examination would be the one who knows what happens to the items once they reach him, and that you have no knowledge or any kind what {2906} happens there?
A  Yes. He puts his identifying mark on it which I don't know what he does and sends it back.
Q  All right. Now, did you proceed then from the search of the green house area to do or to be present with other Agents when a search was made of the general area surrounding Agent Coler's car?
A  Yes. I took my camera and observed them, the Agents doing the work on the car. I observed this, and I took the photo- graphs of the car and bodies.
Q  Was this on the outside of the car in the general area surrounding the car?
A  Immediate proximity of the Coler car.
Q  When was that done?
A  After I had done the work on the green house, that would be subsequently later in the afternoon.
Q  All right, and were you in the presence of those Agents and taking photographs when those events took place, that search surrounding the Coler's car?
A  Yes, I was.
Q  All right. I am going to show you now what has been marked as Government's Exhibit No. 11, and I want you to look at it and look at the items inside and so forth; and then I have some questions to ask you about Item 11.
A  (Examining) These are the FBI credentials of Agent Ronald {2907} Williams. I observed one of our Agents pick these up in front of Coler's car, a few feet in front of his car.
Q  Did you at that time take a look at Government's Exhibit 11?
A  After the Agent picked them up, yes.
Q  And did you notice the picture that is in Government's Exhibit 11 at that time?
A  Yes.
Q  And did you recognize it?
A  That's how I knew it was Agent Williams' credentials immediately.
Q  All right, and is this a standard type of credentials that the agents of the FBI do carry?
A  Yes, it is.
Q  And do you have credentials of this general type on you also?
A  Putting the badge on the outside is optional. Many Agents do that, but it is optional.
Q  But there is on all of them a picture inside of the kind and nature of that kind?
A  That's right.
MR. HULTMAN:  The Government offers into evidence Government's Exhibit 11.
MR. TAIKEFF:  No objection.
THE COURT:  Exhibit 11 is received.
{2908}
(Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 11, having been previously duly marked for identification, so offered in evidence, was received.)
MR. HULTMAN:  I have no further questions, thank you.
MR. TAIKEFF:  May I have Just one moment, your Honor, before I inquire?
THE COURT:  You may.
MR. TAIKEFF:  I would like to proceed now if I may, your Honor.
THE COURT:  Proceed.